Here is a question that a reader named leeanemeredith recently asked in a comment here:
I’ve been thinking on your analogy of God surveying the entire scene of events. Does this somehow mean that everything that’s happened is still somehow happening? Nothing disappears or un-happens? If God sees the entire stage, then the events are still playing out?
This post is an edited and expanded version of my reply, whose original you can see here. It delves into some abstract and mind-bending concepts. If you want to expand your mind with some food for thought about the timeless nature of God, and how that relates to our time-bound human lives, read on!
This question and my answer is a follow up to the article, “If God Already Knows What We’re Going to Do, How Can We Have Free Will?” You might understand this post better if you read that article first. And if you understand all of this perfectly, please let me know and I’ll let you take over from here! 😉
Distinct and gradual levels
Emanuel Swedenborg’s concept of distinct or vertical levels vs. gradual or horizontal levels is helpful here.
There are things that shade into one another smoothly, such as cold to hot and light to dark. But there are also things that are separated from one another by distinct boundaries, such as the liquid, solid, and gaseous states of matter, and the atmosphere, the electromagnetic field, and the gravitational field in which sound, light, and gravity travel, respectively.
In reference to time and space, within the physical universe these happen along gradual levels, one time moving on to the next, and space expanding out linearly or on a curve in all directions. However, between the physical universe and the spiritual universe there is a distinct level, and there is also a distinct level between the spiritual universe and God. One of these levels does not shade into the other along a continuum. Rather, there is a well-defined boundary where one ends and the other begins.
Although there is a relationship between these three distinct or vertical levels of reality, that relationship happens across the definite boundary that distinguishes them from one another. Phenomena on one level correspond to phenomena on the other levels, but they do not intermix with one another. Each proceeds according to its own nature and laws, appropriate to its own distinctive level of reality. Each has its own type of reality distinct from the type of reality that exists on the other two levels.
Material-world time vs. Divine timelessness
What this means is that we cannot mix and match time, knowledge, and perception from one level to the next. On the material level, what is in the past has happened, and is in the past. What is in the present is what’s happening now. And what’s in the future has not happened yet. It has not “already happened somewhere,” because that would be mixing the divine level with the physical level. That would be ascribing time to God’s timeless state.
God does see all the past, present, and future in a single present view. But God is on an entirely distinct level of reality, in which all time and space are one. That is not the case on the physical level. On the physical level, time and space are spread out, time having a directional arrow from the past through the present to the future, and space being spread out spatially in all directions from whatever center one happens to be located at. This is part of the nature and laws of the physical universe—and the physical universe plays out according to its own distinct set of laws.
The material-world future is not yet determined
On the physical level, things that have not happened yet simply haven’t happened yet. They are therefore not determined and cannot be known by us with certainty. We can extrapolate from the past and the present and get some idea of what the future will be. But we can’t know for certain that that’s what will happen, both because there is an element of randomness built into the universe by God (see: “God: Puppetmaster or Manager of the Universe?”) and because our future will be affected by the decisions we make now and into the future—decisions that we have not yet made. Contrary to the Calvinists and materialists, these decisions are not predetermined, but are made freely within the arrow of time.
The past is not “still happening” in the mind of God
Since we humans living in the physical universe have such a hard time banishing time and space from our thinking, we have a very hard time not thinking that God’s consciousness operates within time and space as ours does. However, there are not just one, but two distinct levels between our material-world consciousness and God’s divine consciousness. We can’t mix and match the two. We can’t say that something that has happened is still happening, nor can we say that something that hasn’t happened yet is already happening. That would be mixing material reality with divine reality, which is not possible.
Saying that the future has already happened in the mind of God, or that the past is still happening in the mind of God, is making the mistake of mixing together things that exist on distinct levels. Time simply doesn’t apply to God. In God’s mind, things haven’t “already happened” nor do they “happen in the future.” God does not “know the future” temporally. To God, past, present, and future are all the same. They are all one, just as God is fully one. On God’s level, everything of all time and space is seen in an infinite present, and God is interacting with all of it all at once from that infinite present in which God lives. But on the material level, what is in the past is in the past, having already happened, and what is in the future is in the future and hasn’t happened yet, nor is it definitely determined exactly what will happen.
The spiritual realm is in between
The spiritual level is in between these two. In the spiritual universe there is no fixed time and space as we know it here in the material universe. However, there is still a past, a present, and a future, and things still spread out around us as if there were space.
Even in the spiritual world we can’t know the future with any certainty, though we can get a better sense of it than we can here. And we still can’t be aware of everything everywhere all at once. We can be aware only of what is in our immediate surroundings, and sometimes in a broader area around us or at a particular area in the distance. Even in the spiritual world we are still finite beings. We cannot see and know everything all at once as God does.
Time is real for us, and our choices determine our future
Only God sees all the past, present, and future in one view, and all of space in one view, because only God exists on the highest distinct or vertical level, which is the being of God.
Each level acts according to its own nature and laws. The material universe is not God. This means that within the material universe space, time, and all their ramifications apply. The past is in the past. The future hasn’t happened yet, and it could go in many different directions.
In the human realm, the decisions we make today will change what happens tomorrow. The decisions we make tomorrow will change what happens the next day. God has given us free will, and that free will is real. We are free to make whatever decisions we want to make, whether good or bad, within our particular circumstances. The decisions we make are what will decide and determine our future—especially our long-term future after we leave this material realm to live forever in the spiritual world.
I know all these things are hard to grasp and hard to reconcile with our material-world conception of things. It certainly does seem that if God sees the past and the future, then the past must still be happening, and the future must have already happened. I hope this post helps you to understand that that’s not how things really work. That’s just how it looks to our time-bound mind.
Most of all, I hope it conveys how precious our time and our decisions are during our lifetime here in the material world. That is what will determine our future in the spiritual world.
For further reading:
- If God Already Knows What We’re Going to Do, How Can We Have Free Will?
- God: Puppetmaster or Manager of the Universe?
- Containers for God
- Heaven, Regeneration, and the Meaning of Life on Earth
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Lee Woofenden is an ordained minister, writer, editor, translator, and teacher. He enjoys taking spiritual insights from the Bible and the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg and putting them into plain English as guides for everyday life.
Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life 
“When he to whom one speaks does not understand, and he who speaks himself does not understand, that is metaphysics”. Voltaire.
I don’t mean to be rude but, Swedenborg has no idea how God thinks. If he did, he would in fact be God. Perhaps he believed that he was. No mortal speaks for God.
Hi Hoyle,
I also don’t mean to be rude, but you have no idea how God speaks to human beings such as Swedenborg to reveal to us how God thinks, as much as we are able to understand it. That’s what a relationship with God is all about: mutual understanding, together with mutual love.
Hi Lee,
Trying some formatting!
About Divine Providence, it’s stated that God has a plan for everybody regarding their eternal happiness, maybe not here but definitely in the afterlife.
It’s no news that i desire an partner and a eternal marriage because I’m one hundred percent sure that exchanging love with someone and sharing our lives will make both of us infinitely happier.
Sometimes my well know-ed hackers try to attack it constantly, making me fear that God somehow planned me to be alone forever. That gives me a lots of anxiety at the moment, but when using my spiritual rational mind, i try to map where is the origin of that desire and i can say that it’s one of those rare moments that i can feel directly connected to God. I can truly sense that warmed and comforting sensation coming directly from my heart above.
It’s also stated that we cannot be sure how Divine Providence is working behind the stage but we can see it’s traces in our past experiences, in my case, with my failed attempts to find a girlfriend Haha. Every try i learn something very useful and important, making me grown as a better human and partner! I see that as an preparation to my desire and prayers finally becoming reality someday. 🙂
Thank you and Blessings!
Hi Caio,
You’re rocking the italics on this one! 😀
Specifically about the Lord providing a partner in marriage, here’s what Swedenborg says:
The trick is that not everyone “yearns for real marriage love.” But clearly you do, so there you have it! 🙂
Hi Lee,
Thank you! I will try another formatting now! 😊
I also love the description that the angels gave to him in sequence explaining that same statement:
That the Divine providence of the Lord concerning marriages and in marriages is
most particular and most universal; because all the delights of heaven stream forth from the delights of conjugial love, as sweet waters from the flow of a fountain. And therefore it is provided that conjugial pairs be born, and that they be continually educated
for their marriage under the Lord’s auspices, the boy and the girl not knowing it.
Well, looks like the paragraph formatting didn’t work for me, i guess only you can use this one, Lee!
Hi Caio,
What formatting were you trying to use?
Hi Caio,
Yes, the whole thing is a very beautiful statement.
Hi Lee,
I tried to use the one, the same you use to quote verses and citations from the Bible and Swedenborg books.
This one: (without the blank spaces, because if i type them, they just disappear and do not format the text.
Disappeared again… even with the blank spaces, I will try again to show to you
Delete my previous comment!
This one :
Hi Caio,
Since you replied to the previous comment, I won’t delete it because it will cause your reply to it to go all the way to the top of the comment queue.
Anyway, for block quotes, I use the (drum roll please!) blockquote html tag. The P paragraph tag doesn’t seem to work for me. I just hit Enter twice. But I’ve seen it in some user comments, which is weird.
Hi Lee,
Sorry for the chain of comments!
I’m almost sure this one will be a mess, but I’m not replying this time, so you can delete if it goes wrong!😅
Let me try the block quote!
I will use a verse about Time in Heaven from the NCE of Heaven and Hell.
Hi Caio,
It worked!
Hi Lee,
Checkmate WordPress! 😝
Now my questions and comments can be more visually friendly to help you and others while reading.
Thank you for helping me, Lee. 🙂
Hi Caio,
You’re welcome. You can also use the b tag for bold type.
Hello Lee,
I asked a question a few hours ago, and am sorry for pretty surely adking you in the strongest places but, where do I search for your answer? You said, that the answer is not coming via a private E-Mail, but as an public post.
But the question is about a topic, whose post of yours is so old that I can’t ask question/write comments.
So, where do I habe to look for it?
And sorry again.
Hi Anton,
I have just posted an answer to your question here. I hope you find it helpful.
Awesome. I had a theory very similar to that, I just think I couldn’t explain it as well as you did.
Hi Joshua,
Thanks for stopping by, and for your kind words. I’m glad you enjoyed the article.
Hi Lee,
I have a question on God and the afterlife regarding what you said of The material-world future is not yet determined.
I remembered seeing this article, I didn’t read it called “Time travel: Is it possible? – Science says time travel is possible, but probably not in the way you’re thinking. Scientists and science fiction writers alike continue to imagine the possibilities. “This is the article here:
https://www.space.com/21675-time-travel.html
It pop up regarding this SpaceX launch (it says trending on the top of the website) so wasn’t sure if it had anything to do with it under this article here:
https://www.space.com/spacex-starship-flight-4-test-launch-success
But I wanted to ask you, what are your thoughts on it and would “Time Travel” disprove God and the afterlife in anyway? Or would it just be something regarding this Distinct level?
Thank you kindly Lee
Hi Sam,
Stephen Hawking hit the nail on the head when he said (as quoted in the first article you linked):
He is talking here about unlimited time travel, which would include travel backwards in time. If that were possible, then at some point in the future, whether it is a century from now or a million years from now, we humans will figure out how to do it. And then we will start traveling to the past.
What time period would we travel to? Certainly we would want to travel to the early days of the scientific revolution that changed the course of humanity, and set us on a path that would lead to, among other things, the ability to travel backwards in time. If time travel is possible, we would certainly see “hordes of tourists from the future,” to use Hawking’s words. But we don’t. This is pretty good evidence that it is simply not possible to travel backwards in time.
Traveling forwards in time is a different story. We can do that by accelerating close to the speed of light, which causes time to go slower for us than it does for people who are traveling only at very low speeds. In what felt like a year to us, ten thousand years could have gone by for people on earth. If we were to do a big loop out and back at speeds that are some reasonably large percentage of the speed of light, we could come back to earth and see what it is like ten thousand years from now.
But once we did that, we could never go back to our own time. Our life would continue forward in that later time period.
Also, it would take massive amounts of energy to get a ship big enough to sustain human life inside it up to any percentage of the speed of light big enough to slow time down for the people inside the spaceship. So even though we know this is possible, it will probably be at least a century before we can actually do it. And anyone who did such a trip would have to be willing to take a one-way trip in time.
About SpaceX’s Starship, it’s a big step forward in rocketry, but it cannot go anywhere near fast enough to have any significant affect on the timeline of any people riding inside it.
TL;DR: Time travel into the future is possible, but would take huge amounts of energy. Time travel into the past is almost certainly not possible.
Even if it were possible, how would it disprove God and the afterlife? God exists outside of time and space. Nothing we do inside time and space changes God or threatens God’s existence in any way, shape, or form. The spiritual world also exists outside of physical time and space.
But once again, time travel into the past is almost certainly not possible. Using a hypothetical—especially a highly unlikely one—is not good methodology for any attempts to disprove God’s existence.
Hi Lee,
Thank you so much for the clarification on the subject! And how regardless this or anything else in physical reality has no bearing on God or the afterlife. I remembered in the past reading something that if time travel is possible then therefore for some reason that would make God and the afterlife not real.
If I may ask two more follow ups regarding your thoughts on the same subject, my first what are your thoughts on TV shows like on the Discovery Channel or Gaia TV and websites like https://www.ranker.com/list/time-traveler-pictures/ashley-reign
for example that supposedly these are “proof”?There are many others as well saying that there are time travelers from the future and they showed an old clip from late 1800s to early 1900s of a man holding something up the his ear saying it’s a phone or “advanced tech” so he’s “from the future.” They always showed other clips of so called “men in black” saying they are from the future working for the government. (Im sure you probably saw this one its always used when talking about this subject.)
And another one is “John Titor” from the year “2036”. It’s considered a so called “internet mystery” and a “Titor foundation” was crated based on this and published a book presenting the Titor story as “real” about the “U.S. government, and bearing warnings about a dark future ahead” to “My ‘time’ machine is a stationary mass, temporal displacement unit manufactured by General Electric. The unit is powered by two top-spin dual-positive singularities that produce a standard off-set Tipler sinusoid,” and a mission to “just stopped by at the turn of the century while on task to retrieve an IBM 5100 computer system from 1975.” But I from what I remembered reading that the majority of his predictions turned out wrong but people still push it as true?
There’s others as well like the Mike Tyson fight someone in the background was supposedly holding an iPhone to 20 and back age regression programs of people being kidnapped for genetic reasons and serving time on mars and the moon and then going back in time to where they left off so no time has passed. Like in the link article says along with like Corey Goode and Andrew Basiago have recently made elaborate claims about secret space programs and time travel which supposedly this been going on since WW1 or WW2 with Germany leading the way. And Facebook groups like “ufosighting.19” encouraging people to learn about this “history and technology”?
Hi Lee,
My last follow up question would be,
what are your thoughts as well on concepts of the “Butterfly Effect” so any spiritual experiences or anything like the Bible is wrong it’s just time machines and travelers from the future advanced civilization coming back in time to our timeline you are experiencing?
Like how these examples here: How Humans Can See The Future Weird or What? | Ft. William Shatner – Of how we can see into the future.
Like an Ohio man whose dreams predicted a horrible place crash before it happened. It then looks at how the premonitions of a boy saved his family from a deadly volcanic eruption in the state of Washington. Finally, it looks at a California man who was able to foresee the Hurricane Katrina disaster with uncanny accuracy. And this one is another one called:
The Human Mind Is More Powerful Than We Ever Imagined| Weird or What? | Ft.
William Shatner – Of how the human mind has powers beyond out comprehension. Like visions have helped to crack a case of a homicide, to a man with total recall who remembers every moment from every day of his life, to a healer who seems to have powers to cure?
And also that “Black holes times goes backwards” and how scientist use molecular “time travel”? http://news.uchicago.edu/article/2012/01/08/scientists-use-molecular-time-travel-recreate-evolution-complexity
Sorry for the poor writing I wasn’t sure how to word it.
Thank you kindly Lee for the clarity and for your time. It makes so much more sense plus my anxiety surrounding the topic is gone! lol
Hi Sam,
Maybe I’ll look up these links. But really, most of it is just too silly to spend time with. People are always coming up with nutty ideas, and using all the same tired “proofs” about deep dark government secret programs and old computers and strange experiences that when you try to actually look them up, turn out to be non-existent, or something completely different than what these whacked-out articles and videos say they are. Really, it’s best just to tune all that stuff out. It’s just a great big time sink for time that could be used learning actual, solid, useful information. People stay ignorant and superstitious because they spend all their time with this clickbait stuff, and never get around to learning about actual reality.
Hi Lee,
Thank you and for the rational understanding of these things. I feel like there are two worlds, the one online which not all but majority of it filled with this stuff and around fear. Then there is the real world outside of that filled with love, God, and what really matters. It’s like some of these people want to spread fear and confusion and suck people into it, it’s weird. But that’s exactly what I’m going to do, tune it out!
And I wasn’t sure if molecular time travel if they where talking about real time travel or about evolution and not even about time travel which is what I suspect lol
Thank you kindly again Lee
Hi Sam,
There is a never-ending stream of falsity spewing out from various directions. If you tune into it, it will overwhelm you. But you can tune it out simply by not giving it clicks. Over time—sometimes fairly quickly—the search algorithms will stop serving it up for you.
Personally, I rarely get recommendations for videos and articles on fluffy New Age topics, except briefly after I watch videos posted by readers here who want a response. This is also why I don’t always follow and read the links you and others post—or if I do, I stay there only briefly, and click away as soon as I’ve gotten the gist of it.
Instead, I regularly go to good, solid sources of information about the people and events I’m interested in. I’ll try out others if they come up, but if they turn out to be clickbait, I will stop visiting those sources. And if the algorithm keeps serving a particular source or subject to me that I do not want to see, I use the method provided to tell the algorithm that I’m not interested in that source or subject.
You can’t completely screen out the junk. The clickbaiters are always looking for ways to trick you into clicking on their garbage. That’s how they make their $$$. But you can reduce the junk down to a low level. The less you do click on their manure, the less you feed the trolls, and the less they harass you.
Any headline that says “this one thing” or “that nobody noticed” or “weird” or “secret” or “reveals” or “insane” or or any of the other clickbait words that make it sound like there’s substance there when there really isn’t, is a give-away that it’s not worth clicking on. If the headline doesn’t actually tell you what the article is about, that’s another give-away. A good headline is a one-line synopsis of the contents of the article or video. If it doesn’t do that, then the people who posted it are playing mind games with you.
Don’t fall for it.
Instead, click on the headlines that respect your time and intelligence by telling you exactly what the video or article is about.
Incidentally, early on in the life of this blog I used some of those clickbait words to try to get into the search algorithms. It didn’t really work, and I stopped doing that fairly quickly. None of those clickbait titled articles get much traffic now. But many other articles that I wrote and posted years ago that are solid pieces on subjects people are searching for answers about just keep getting visitors day after day, week after week, and year after year, almost all of them from the search engines.
Hi Sam,
About this:
A common ruse of the clickbaiters is to make it sound like some recent scientific discovery or item in the news is about something other than what it’s actually about. These articles will give you the impression that this new thing means there is some secret cabal, or the world is about to end, or aliens have visited, or whatever, when the actual discovery or event means nothing of the sort. The clickbaiters are banking on people being ignorant and swallowing their ridiculous and absurd twisting of the latest headlines.
The very fact that you are uncertain what the article is talking about is a tell-tale sign that the article is playing with your mind rather than providing you good solid information. When you finish reading a well-written article, you’ll feel that you’ve learned something new, and that you now know or understand something you didn’t know or understand before. If instead by the time you get to the end of the article you’re a bit confused, and have a sense that something is going on that you don’t quite understand, that is an indication either that the writer (or video maker) doesn’t know what s/he is talking about or that s/he is purposely messing with your mind for emotional effect and clicks.
Back when I was in seminary in the 1990s, I spent a summer interning at a local agency that provided counseling, usually court-ordered, for men who are physically and emotionally abusive to their wives and girlfriends. During the internship, I learned a lot from the experienced counselors about how, for lack of a better term, bullshitting works.
One such insight that has stuck with me ever since was when one of the counselors asked me, “If one of our clients says something that’s confusing, how would you respond?” I mumbled some platitude in response. He said, “What about saying, ‘I’m confused!’?”
In other words, if someone is feeding you some confusing BS, and you don’t have any idea what they’re talking about, call them on it. Make them say clearly what they mean. If they’re feeding you some confusing and contradictory line, they’re probably BSing you, and themselves as well.
The same goes for articles and videos that leave you confused and uncertain what exactly they’re talking about. If you get to the end and it just leaves you confused, it’s probably garbage. Once again, good articles and videos will leave you feeling that you have new knowledge, understanding, and insight about the subject covered.
One more thing. If you are talking to someone in person and they’re saying something confusing, but you feel as if you’ll sound dumb if you question them about it, just add the word “exactly” to your question. “What, exactly, do you mean by ‘vibrations’?” This is one simple trick ( 😉 ) for making “stupid” questions sound smart!
Hi Lee,
Haha! I appreciate the tip on the one simple trick! But in all seriousness, thank you for the guidance on these things and what to look out for and the red flags to avoid and what to stay away from. It’s so true what you said like when reading your articles/books or books like Swedenborg you’re walking away understanding something even the hardest subjects you can grasp what is being said and walk away learning something new. I know I absolutely lack discernment and whatever I see or read online especially someone who claims to be “authority” or an “expert” I just automatically believe them even if they’re saying the most craziest things. Or that sometimes I can be going about my day and a random thought about something I heard or watched that really bothered me in the past will pop into mind. I will just keep thinking about it over and over until I track down that specific article or video that I saw it on and then needing to ask questions about it and use it to source the quote from. But while in the process of finding that specific article or video I’ll end up saving 100 other videos because I’ll see other things that also bothers me. Which like you said it just waste your time on things that you could spend doing instead that are actually useful. But like your experience with working with the councilors you know how people work and the signs when they’re giving you the run around so instantly you can call out the BS which is rampant now days especially online where anyone can claim anything they want and get away with it and that’s how like you said they make their money or get their power trip and probably both. I need to work on that and not letting what people claim stick with me. It’s amazing how Hell is constantly in your face attacking you while the loving angels and thoughts from Heaven are the gentle ones that are not pushing.
Also I should have just linked my tumblr account https://www.tumblr.com/sams-questions/745571250075779072 instead of hyperlinked it in one of my questions above. I’m not sure if that will tell the algorithm anything since I never put hashtags or name the account or anything. I just screen shot it and post it so nothing follows it.
Also just a quick question as well, would what you said regarding how “Nothing we do inside time and space changes God or threatens God’s existence in any way, shape, or form.” Would they apply to the World of Spirits, Heaven and Hell as well since like you said they exist outside time and space?
But thank you very kindly again Lee for the excellent guidance on how these people/articles work and also I want to apologize for making your algorithm think you’re into New Age mumbo jumbo. I try to include sources where I got it from in case I’m misinterpreting something or just for referencing but I’m sorry for that!
Hi Sam,
About this:
In general, the material world can’t threaten the spiritual world. However, people who come from the material world can, because they have spirits also. This is how evil built up so much in the spiritual world that God had to bring about a Last Judgment to clear out all the evil people who were clogging up the world of spirits and blocking what is good and true from reaching people here on earth.
Fortunately, since God did that, the pathways are now clear. That is why there was such an explosion of new understanding and creativity starting around the time of Swedenborg, known secularly as “the Enlightenment.” Ever since then, humanity has been moving forward rapidly, in comparison to the relatively slow progress before that time.
Hi Lee,
Ok make sense how nothing in the material reality can touch the spiritual reality like how an invention or physics/science can’t touch it but since people have a spirit they exist in the spiritual reality as well carrying over all what is good or bad. And that’s really cool how Swedenborg experienced a clearing out of the Hells and now that opened so much here on Earth. Which really goes to show how our conscious thinking self is in the spirit and not in the body. Really cool!
Like that reminds me of a an old Michael Tymn “report” that crossed over scientists become skeptics the Earth is real? Like the idea skeptics cross over and become so called “Earth deniers”?
I think it was in Heaven and Hell Swedenborg says how some people need to be told that they are passed. But not sure if that applies to that as well but I’m sure people like that cause a blockage as well bringing their materialism or their fear based conspiracy thinking to the world of spirits?
Thank you again Lee
If God can see everything, does God have a special workaround for the Heisenberg uncertainty principle?*
*(at small enough scales one can clearly see the position of a particle or the velocity but not both at the same time)
PS: The same can be asked of relativity where simultaneity is relative.
Hi K,
Once again, God looks at the universe from a perspective that is outside of time, space, and all its uncertainties and relativities.
How would any mortal being know wh
Hi pumpjackdude,
Your reply got cut off. But if you’re asking what I think you are, though humans cannot reach out and figure out God’s mind from our side, God can reach out and reveal God’s mind to us from God’s side. That is exactly what God has done in the sacred literature of humanity, and in individual revelations and spiritual experiences given to millions of people over the millennia.
Hi K,
The Heisenberg uncertainty principle assumes we are looking from within space and time, using physical means. God sees everything from outside of space and time, using non-physical means. That’s the “work-around.”
Beyond that, as I say in the article “God: Puppetmaster or Manager of the Universe?” I have come to believe that God purposely built “uncertainty” or randomness into the universe as a necessary condition for God’s purposes in creating the universe.
Things may be, even must be, uncertain to us, situated as we are within the arrow of time. But nothing is uncertain to God, who looks at everything from outside of time.
Hi Lee,
I have a two part question on mediation or spiritual transformative experiences (NDEs?) and astrology. What do you make of these statements and peoples descriptions? And also at the very bottom there is a list of common experiences of spiritual and NDEs list based off of “thousands”. This is the link here http://www.multidimensionalman.com/Multidimensional-Man/What_is_an_awakened_mind_like.html
And there was this quote saying “IT’S ALL IN THE BRAIN (?) Any Out-of-Body traveler who managed to look at his physical body from six inches away (without the use of a mirror), perhaps noticing his receding hairline at the top of his head, will find it impossible to be convinced by skeptics that this is all a result of misalignment caused by some chemical action within his brain. Naturally in the same way the traveller will equally accept his Out-of-Body journeys into our multidimensional universe to be just as valid and real, just as independent from the brain, no matter how strange they may appear. But what if we take this to another level, into the regions of thoughts, can these too be regarded as experiences beyond our physical brain, independent of the chemical processes involved, the serotonins, the body’s DMT?
Currently there is no proof, but there is experience. In the end it is not the media which will bring the truth, but our own individual experience and how we interpret it.” I just wanted to get your thoughts on these types of things. And on that website there is all the “levels” like the “super dimensions” of giving up what make you yourself and all these afterlife “levels” I just wanted to get your thoughts on these types of things. Is this like what you talk about in this article about being symbolism and not literalism? Like “…the ark itself as a symbolic portrayal of the mind…”?
It goes on to say:
“Common characteristics of Spiritual
Transformational Experiences:
STEs are often a once-in-a-lifetime experience and they can change the course of our lives forever. They are experienced across the cultural divide by people from all walks of life and are independent of religious backgrounds. The higher consciousness does not discriminate between believers and non-believers. This demonstrates that it springs directly from the very source of our consciousness, putting it beyond the reach of our minds. Interestingly enough, when reading STE reports, either from Near Death experiencers or Peak Experiencers, they often share important common characteristics. According to Dr. P.M.H.
Atwater’s NDE Research conducted over 43 years and involving nearly 7,000 subjects she discovered the following common factors:
Overwhelming Love
Mental Telepathy
Life Review
Experience of God
Powerful Ecstasy
Unlimited Knowledge
Experiencing Different Dimensions
Seeing the Future
Meeting their Religious Avatar (Jesus, Buddha etc.)
Homecoming
Reviving Forgotten Knowledge
(Source: Dr. P.M.H. Atwater’s NDE Research)
What are your thoughts on this info? I feel like this PMH Atwater has a newage narrative to push?
Technique for integrating STE via anchoring and the awakening of the Presence
It is possible to integrate our experience into our life so it becomes a daily experience rather than a distant memory. To do this we need to gradually change our neural wiring by activating our right brain hemisphere. It’s via the right brain hemisphere that our ” Silent Companion”, described in the next part, emerges. Meditation facilitates this. A special technique for STEers is described below.
My my second follow up question that is sorta similar to this is I was on social media and someone was saying how astrology readings like from “ASTROCARTOGRAPHY or Astro dot com” and you need to know your birth time for it to be most “accurate”. They go on to say “…which is meant to help you understand how different geographical locations affect your life. It’s been kinda strangely accurate, and I’m by no means knowledgeable in the slightest in this field. I just did it out of curiosity.
My Jupiter line is the green line so living near that line presents more opportunities, growth and expansion (which is actually our biggest focus for 2025) The blue line represents communication and learning which runs right through Japan, so in creative fields like writing or speaking, it’s supposedly a good place to be.
Everyone’s chartwill be different and once you get your chart, you just ask ChatGPT to interpret it for you. If you ever felt like you belonged to a place or just felt more motivated or at home there, maybe this will make it make sense”
And
“With consciousness there is no boundaries of time or space.
Example: What if you went to a party that you loved, just like you can teleport to different spaces, you can teleport back to the party as it’s still happening. Everything that’s ever happened in what we call time is still happening right now, it never stops happening. You are creating new timelines which is just an endless infinite tapestry of stuff happening that you can access at any point at any “time” because time isn’t linear.
“If you ever catch yourself saying “this is the ultimate truth”… No.
You’ve just limited yourself and the universe. The universe is all about having experiences to help expand itself, to learn more about itself, to grow… how can it be limited? How can you say there’s an ultimate truth? Maybe there’s an ultimate truth within…”
I apologize for the long question and for my writing as well. I remember a YouTube video and people reading these graphs on the solar system and planets to palms and even NDE maps how our afterlife states are linked to our solar system and how you can see the future by being in astrology. People are always saying how it’s “so accurate” like horoscopes like Taurus and such.
I always had questions on these and just wanted to ask you!
Thank you kindly Lee
There is a similar line of Theory or Model that has been recognized by Wikipedia as potential alternative explanation to Consciousness model.
https://neuroclusterbrain.com/
i don’t if it’s science or pseudoscience.
I’d love to hear Lee’s opinions on this too.
Hi fantasticunabashedlyf0de8eea8a,
From the article:
No it’s not. A computer is a machine. A brain is not a machine. Computer scientists are always trying to make computers work more like the human brain precisely because the human brain has functionality far beyond the capabilities of any computer. And it has those capabilities precisely because it is a living organism, not a mere mechanical device.
And of course, it has those capabilities because it is a tool being operated by our spirit, whose level of organization, intricacy, and complexity is many orders of magnitude greater even than the human brain with its tens of billions of neurons and hundred trillion connections between neurons.
Hi Sam,
A “two-part question”? I would call that a multi-part question! 😀
I have no problem with what’s said about the mind being independent of the brain in your first two paragraphs. Clearly if we can witness our own body from a position outside of it in the course of an OBE, we have a set of senses other than our physical senses, and our consciousness is capable of functioning even when our physical brain is non-functional. Sure, it could all be rejected as a hallucination. But then where does the hallucination come from? Theoretically when the brain is being starved of oxygen so that we lose consciousness, we should experience woozy and shadowy things precisely because our brain is not fully functional. In fact, in this state people commonly report experiencing things far more clearly and vividly than they do in their ordinary waking consciousness. In other words, what happens is exactly the opposite of what we would expect if consciousness were a function of the brain. Instead of our experience becoming less vivid when the brain is only partially functional, it becomes more vivid.
However, it should also be said that as long as our consciousness is residing in the body, and is focused on the material world—as it is during our ordinary waking consciousness throughout our lifetime on earth—the functioning of our mind does depend upon the state of our physical brain. That’s because our consciousness, which is spiritual, acts through our physical brain and body while we are living in the physical world. So if the physical brain is damaged, it damages our ability to think. It’s like someone using a cellphone to talk to someone on the other side of the world. If the cellphone is damaged, or the connection is poor, the communication becomes difficult or impossible even though both people are perfectly healthy and sound and able to carry on a conversation. It is only after we die and leave our physical body behind that our consciousness becomes completely independent of our physical brain and body.
Hi Sam,
About “spiritually transformative experiences,” yes, these can change people’s lives forever. But it’s not really about “achieving enlightenment.” It’s about becoming a good and loving person.
In my younger years I knew a woman who had had various “STEs,” but she was all wrapped up in herself, and viewed everything through the prism of how it affected her. She could get quite nasty when something didn’t go her way, such as when a friend of mine who was renting a place from her wrecked one of her cooking pots, and the lady got mad and became verbally abusive. STEs by themselves don’t necessarily turn anyone into a good person.
What does turn us into good people is when we focus on actively loving and serving our fellow human beings, as Jesus taught in the Gospels. Without that, no amount of STEs and “enlightenment” matters in the least. The only real purpose of enlightenment is to inspire and guide us toward doing the work of leaving behind our selfishness and greed, and becoming a person who is devoted to caring about, and caring for, other people.
My problem with most Eastern and New Age stuff is that all the focus is on “enlightenment,” as if gaining great knowledge and insight about spiritual things is what matters. But spiritual knowledge matters only when it is put into practice in our everyday life in the community of people all around us.
Hi Sam,
I don’t go for astrology. It makes no sense to me that the positions of the physical stars and planets at the time of a person’s birth would have a determinative effect upon that person’s personality. Our personality is spiritual, not physical.
Besides, the positions of the zodiac in the sky have shifted more than the width of a constellation since the signs of the zodiac were assigned by astrologers over 2,500 years ago. Nobody is actually born under the sign that is assigned to them by astrologists. Only if they had been born on that date 2,500 years ago would they have been that sign. This means that every single sign of the zodiac that astrologers apply to people is wrong. For example, although in astrology Libras are people born between September 22 and October 23, in astronomy the sun is in Libra between October 31 and November 22. Nobody is actually the sign they think they are. So if you’re a Libra and you’re supposed to have a particular personality type because you’re a Libra, and it all seems to fit, then you’re being hoodwinked. You’re actually a Virgo, not a Libra.
It was when I learned this that I realized that astrology is, objectively speaking, bunk.
Funny thing is, I learned it from an astronomical star chart that I was using to observe the constellations in the night sky when I was a teenager. There was a little blurb on the star chart explaining why the constellations aren’t where they’re “supposed to be” according to astrology.
I believe what’s actually happening with astrologists is that astrologists are people who are willing to accept some sort of supernatural effects upon people’s lives. They are therefore tapping into the spiritual atmosphere around them, and this gives them some insight into the spiritual state of people’s minds, individually and collectively, which then gets expressed in their “readings.” It really has nothing to do with the stars and planets. These are just objects, like totems, that astrologers focus on while receiving spiritual inflow that is the actual source of their “readings.”
Having said that, I still don’t think astrology is worth bothering with. Most of its “readings” are vague and could be interpreted in any number of ways. People hear their “reading,” fit their own experience into it, and then say, “Wow, that’s so accurate!” But really, the “accuracy” was coming from their own mind, and the “reading” was just a mental object that caused them to think about their life and experiences in a certain way. If the “reading” had been different (as it is every day), they would have different thoughts, and it would have given them different “insights” into their mind and the events of their life.
Much better, I think, to ditch the astrology and just pay attention to your own desires, thoughts, and actions as you go about your day. Not all the time, of course. Too much navel-gazing is not psychologically and spiritually healthful. And sometimes the task or situation in front of you requires your full attention. But as your life unfolds, and you say and do various things, and various things happen to you to which you react, pay attention to your thoughts, feelings, and reactions, and compare them against your ideals as learned from the Bible, Swedenborg, various spiritual writings, and other sources, not to mention ordinary common sense. In this way, you can gradually bend your thoughts, feelings, and actions closer and closer to the ideals that your mind and conscience tells you are best. This is a far more effective “practice” than following some vague astrological “readings” that could mean almost anything.
And once again, the important part is not achieving some sort of “enlightenment,” but becoming a good, loving, and practically useful human being.
Hi Sam,
Finally, about this:
Most of this is just a lot of woo-woo nonsense.
Time is linear. And even spiritually, our life unfolds within the sequence of events and experiences that form our life. Yes, you can go back mentally to the party that you went to physically last weekend. But you can’t actually go back to that party in real life. It already happened. It’s over now. Your life has moved on. The party now exists in your memory, and in the effects it had upon your life. So it’s a part of you, but you can’t go back to it. Everything that’s ever happened to us is a part of us, but we can’t go back to it, because we’re no longer the same person we were when those things happened. We have learned and grown as a result of them. Even if we went back to the “same” party, we would not be the same person we were, so we wouldn’t experience it the same way.
It is not possible for us to go back to our past and re-experience it. Maybe in science fiction it is, but not in reality.
We are not creating “new timelines.” We are continually influencing what our “timeline” will be by our choices and actions. But once we go one direction, the other possible directions we could have gone are no longer available, and they do not exist in reality. Only in theoretical thought. Even then, we don’t know what would actually have happened if we had made a different choice, because that’s not how things unfolded, and there are far more possibilities and influences than we could possibly factor in to figure out what would have happened if we had turned right instead of left at a particular intersection.
It’s true that we don’t ever have “ultimate truth.” Only God does. But this doesn’t mean that all we have is illusion, as some people believe and teach. What we have can be a more or less accurate representation of the ultimate truth on the limited level of our mind and experience. For example, if you hold out your hand on a sunny day and see its shadow on the ground, the shadow can be an accurate representation in two dimensions of the shape of your three-dimensional hand if you hold your hand at right-angles to the sun, and the ground is flat. But if the ground is all wavy and lumpy, the shadow of your hand will be distorted, and not like the shape of your actual hand. Or if you hold your hand edgewise to the sun, you won’t see your fingers in the shadow, because they’re all lined up in front of and behind each other. Just so, even though our mind is limited and finite, we can have an accurate understanding on our own finite level of the infinite reality of God, or we can have a distorted understanding of the nature of God.
And then this little bit of hokum:
There’s this little thing called “God” that seems to have gotten left out here. “The universe” doesn’t experience anything. It’s just a created object. Yes, a very complex created object. But the universe is not conscious. It does not have any experiences at all, let alone learning about itself and growing. The universe is an inanimate object.
The universe is limited. Only God is infinite, meaning without limits.
And the universe doesn’t learn anything at all. Only humans learn about themselves and grow. And the ultimate source of that learning and growth is not “the universe,” but God.
God, who is infinite, already knows everything. God does not learn and grow. God exists outside of time and space, and even outside the spiritual analogs of time and space, which involve growth in understanding and love. God already has infinite understanding and infinite love.
What this bit of hokum says about “the universe” is really about us as human beings, both individually and collectively.
Even then, it misses the most important part. Our life is not all about learning. Learning is very important, but it is only a means to an end, which is the growth of our heart, meaning our love. We must grow out of the rather self-absorbed loves and desires we are born with, and usually enter into adulthood with, and replace them with an outgoing love for God and for other people. This is not just a theoretical, intellectual “enlightenment.” It is an actual change in our character, which is expressed in the way we live our lives in community with the people around us.
Once again, life is not about “enlightenment.” Enlightenment itself is only a guide toward becoming a good and loving person. If it doesn’t accomplish that in our life, it’s just a pile of useless decaying building materials that never got built into a house that people can live in.
Oh, and about this:
This is true only of God’s consciousness. Our human consciousness does have boundaries of time and space, and of their spiritual equivalents.
Hi Lee,
Thank you very much for the in all the depth clarifications on these topics and what they truly mean and relate to our spiritual life! And haha I should have said multi part question as well! In my mind I thought I was breaking it down in two parts but looking back a multi part question is much better suited! lol
And it really shows how experiences themselves are useless unless we can use them to become better people and spread good, so all these emphasis on “STEs” are useless and are like any other experience in life if we are still rude and mean to fellow people which really all experiences are either from our spirit interacting with other spirits and communities or the physical world depending on our brains state so “STEs” would be technically nothing special. Not to mention about hallucinations are more real nor less showing how we experience things in our spirit not the body which is just a tool.
I wonder how they came up with the “common experience list” like “seeing the future” or “dimensions” which should be labeled spiritual communities? I remember reading/watching interviews of NDEs of some people have experiences that show them what their life will be and I guess it turned out to be true? And even some NDErs experience like this “memory machine” type of technology that is able to bring them back or forward to any time and experience like it’s happening in the present like full sensory experience? I remember watching a video on OTLE with an interview with an NDErs who says this like the title was this is what heaven is something like that. But since we can’t see the future we are finite and only God is infinite and has no bounds, wouldn’t that be just a correspondence and not really seeing the future?
But I never knew that about Astrology at all! I never got into it and I just felt like it never resonated with me and now I know why! It’s full of bunk! It seems really popular with some groups of my friends and co-workers or people online but learning about they are just projecting their desires into the “readings” makes so much sense and just because they are using planets or stars or whatever is no different than any other object which makes so much sense! Along with the other quotes which exclude God and make the universe as if it’s a god that’s alive and seeing how limited and wrong that is.
Not to mention that God does not need to learn or grow or need new experiences really puts the nail in the coffin so to speak when these people spread these false things along with with infinite timelines or going back in time. I have lots of fond memories with people that have passed on but I much rather be with them in the present spiritual world that we can grow from each other forward than a past memory!
Thank you so much again Lee for getting to the bottom and true understanding about these topics!
Hi Lee,
I have a question on a passage in Secrets of Heaven #2575.
He is talking about an infinite or uncountable amount of numbers, wealth, etc. But I thought everything in the physical world is finite, only God is infinite?
Like I remembered hearing how numbers like Pi, or like the Mandelbrot, the Golden Ratio, and so on are all supposedly infinite which some people interpret that as god. Like they equate everything even physical reality, emotions, differences in personalities and choices to everything else you can possibly think of linked and or created to mathematics so therefore everything can be reduce to a series of infinite numbers or infinite probability sets as some afterlife “experiencers/experts” proclaim. So basically making math into some god or idol.
I know the multiverse has zero evidence but I remember some say that the multiverse with mathematic formulas said that the Christian god could be the god of this universe or reality and since everything exist in some alternate world there would be like another universe or reality that say Buddha would be the god of. Since this “works on paper”.?
But would infinite numbers as Swedenborg talks about it be more spiritual since technically we can count for forever and have all these formulas but that doesn’t mean that there are an infinite amount of something in the finite physical universe, us counting and thinking is spiritual which belongs to the spiritual realm and the Divine.
And if I may add as well, what’s your thoughts on papers like a new study how the unconscious mind processes information by conducting an experiment on “Neuron Numerology” a theory that every single number has meaning? But of course they’re taking a materialistic position and not looking at the spiritual state of our existence which is where everything comes from.
Thank you Lee
Hi Sam,
Notice that it says:
Swedenborg is here interpreting the Bible passage on the highest, heavenly or “celestial” level, which is the level of meaning that is about the Lord and the Lord’s glorification. It is because it’s about the Lord that the meaning of “a thousand pieces of silver” is “an infinite wealth of rational truth.” As applied to us, on the “spiritual” level of meaning, it would mean, not infinite truth, but “a large amount or uncountable number” of truth.
Secrets of Heaven is a complex book. Swedenborg regularly jumps back and forth between the spiritual meaning, which is about our human process of regeneration, and the heavenly meaning, which is about the Lord’s glorification. He doesn’t always clearly state which meaning he’s talking about. In other parts of Secrets of Heaven he focuses on what is traditionally called the “internal historical” meaning, which is about the spiritual history of humanity as a whole.
If you keep in mind that there are these three levels of deeper meaning—internal historical, spiritual, and heavenly/celestial—it will help to avoid considerable confusion in his interpretation of different verses and passages.
About the multiverse thing, if there is a multiverse (which I doubt) then God is the God of all universes, not just of one. There might be different beliefs about God in different universes, but they still all point to the same God, who is infinite. Infinite means all-encompassing. If God were the God only of one universe, not all of them, then God would not be infinite, but finite, because God would be limited to one universe.
And why would Buddha be the god of a different universe? Buddha is a product of this universe!
I did a Google search for “Neuron Numerology” (in quotes), and it doesn’t seem to be a thing. Can you give me a link to an article or video that talks about it?
Back to the “infinite” thing, there is a debate about whether mathematics is a real thing that exists in the real world, or just something we humans impose upon the real world conceptually. Mathematically, there are various types of infinities, such as the apparently infinite number of non-repeating decimal places of the number Pi. But do these infinities exist in actual reality? Really, Pi is a finite number somewhere between the number 3.14159 and 3.1416. It’s just that we can only approximate that number, because it doesn’t fall on one of our regular dividing lines (half, third, quarter, fifth, etc.). So is Pi really an infinity in the real world, even if mathematics do exist in the real world—which is debatable?
Now consider the idea that there are infinite numbers, because no matter how high we count, there is always another number higher than that one. But in the real world, are there actually infinite numbers? Let’s say I start counting now, and I keep right on counting as long as the universe exists (assuming I somehow I manage to survive the heat death of the universe)? Will I ever reach infinity? No. I’ll just keep counting forever. No matter how high I count, there will always be a number after that one. Every single number I count is still a finite number, even if a seriously huge number. Even a quadrillion quintillion sextillion septillion octillion nonillion is still a finite number, not an infinite number.
I don’t think any infinities exist in the real world, either material or spiritual. We have the concept of infinity, but in reality, it can exist only in God, who is the only thing that really is infinite.
A short way of saying this is that infinity is not material, nor is it spiritual; it is divine.
Hi Lee,
Thank you I appreciate the clarification and I will definitely keep that in mind those three levels when reading Secrets of Heaven to better understand what state he is referring which will help with understanding the context better. I will definitely be keeping my eyes pealed for that.
As for “Neuron Numerology” I remember hearing it on YouTube along with the same speaker “talking about how everything even physical reality, emotions, differences in personalities and choices to everything else you can possibly think of linked and or created to mathematics so therefore everything can be reduce to a series of infinite numbers or infinite probability sets as some afterlife “experiencers/experts” proclaim. So basically making math into some god or idol.”
It was probably David Bloom, Anthony Peake or Tom Campbell either three lol. I remember watching it around 2020 give or take. I should have kept the link I just remember jotting the quote down because I didn’t know what to make of it. Now I’m better with references but back then I would just turn it off and walk away lol.
But that’s what I thought as well regarding Buddha! I guess according the the multiverse – string theory – black hole – hologram crowd everything we think of or do creates a new universe that keeps expanding into infinity so because of that and the dead cat in the box analogy they use where if the person looks into the box that creates a new universe and say if the cat is dead then in the other universe it’s alive but that gets extrapolated into infinite variations of that cat along with choices as well. So in other words everything and everyone is a god is some universe. Which sounds ridiculous but these people from those crowds love propagating it. That’s why they say there is no afterlife we’re just seeing people from these other universes. Past present and future.
And I never thought about infinity in that way before. I saw huge numbers written in mathematics like you have said and regardless how big the number is or how far you keep counting it’s still a finite number. Which shows you can keep counting and counting and that number will always be finite no matter what. I don’t think we can even comprehend what’s truly infinite anyway because all our definitions and what not are still finite and not God.
I get the sense that we know infinity exist because deep in everyone’s hearts we know that there is one infinite God but because our spirit is finite and receives things infinitely differently, some people take that and twist it to their materialistic way and since they view everything materialistically they are going to find confirming things that support their view. Like these people use things like the Mandelbrot or the Golden Ratio mathematics to support mathematics created everything (even our sense of self?) but this again reminds me like you said about people starting backwards using the natural world to explain everything when we should be starting with the Divine and working from there to the spiritual world and finally to the physical universe. God created everything and math is just a tool but that tool didn’t create the artist or the painting. (I hope my rambling makes sense lol)
Thank you again Lee
Hi Sam,
It’s true that all numbers have meaning. But a mathematical formula is not reality. Reality requires substance. Math has no substance. It is just a way of describing one of the properties of substance, which is its quantity or number or length, with, height, etc. If there weren’t some actual thing that the numbers applied to, they would just be abstractions without any actual existence.
Very true, it’s amazing how easily these arguments fall apart when approached from a true understanding.