Here is a Spiritual Conundrum submitted to Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life by a reader named Giselle:
If we don’t have children while alive, will we be able to have children in the afterlife?
Thanks for the good question, Giselle! It is one that lies heavy on the hearts of many women and men who wish for children, but do not have them for reasons that are often beyond their control. Some are able to adopt children and satisfy their longing to be parents in that way. For others, it is a dream that is never fulfilled during their lifetime on earth.
Mother and Child
For those who wish for children but never have them here on earth, does this mean they have missed their opportunity, and will never have children, even in the afterlife?
I have good news, and I have bad news.
First the bad news:
No children are born in heaven. If you long for children who carry your genes and are your own flesh and blood, then your only opportunity is to have children here on earth.
Now for the good news:
Even if you don’t have children on earth, that doesn’t mean you can never be a parent and raise children.
Every day, tens of thousands of children die all around the world. That’s millions of children every year, year after year.
Every single one of those children needs parents in the afterlife.
You see, children who die don’t just automatically become angels. They must still grow up in heaven. And that means they need parents to raise them.
All children are born on earth
First, let’s deal with the bad news.
All human beings and angels get their start in the physical world. All the angels in heaven were once flesh-and-blood people, who then died and went to heaven. Some died as children, some died as adults. But all of them had at least a brief life in a physical body.
Think about it. Why would God have created this incredibly vast and complex physical universe if it weren’t required for God’s plan of creating a heaven of angels? Something about starting out with a physical body in a material universe must have been necessary for God’s plan, or there wouldn’t be a material universe.
Exactly why it is necessary to live in a physical body first is a complex philosophical and spiritual question. Here is a simple version of one of the reasons:
Just as the human body needs a skin to hold it together and protect it from many things in the world around it, so the human spirit needs to have lived in a body to give itself the boundaries and fixity required to keep its integrity. Otherwise it would gush out, melt away, and dissipate into the spiritual environment.
You see, the spiritual environment is far more fluid and alive than the physical environment here in the material world. In the spiritual world, thoughts, ideas, feelings, knowledge, and everything else can easily flow into one another. If there weren’t something to provide a boundary, everything would melt together into a sort of spiritual soup in which everyone’s spirit was dissolved. We would lose our distinct character and identity, and would blend into one another rather than being able to have relationships with one another—and with God—as unique individuals.
But God created us especially to be in loving relationships with one another and with God.
So God provided for us to start out with a physical body that would give our spirit something like a “skin” that would keep us distinct as unique individuals rather than just flowing and merging into one another in the spiritual world.
Okay, that’s enough philosophy talk!
The main point is, all babies are born here in the material universe.
If you’re intent on having your own children that are of your own flesh and blood, and carry your heredity, then earth is the place to do it! And unfortunately, if for whatever reason you are unable to have children here on earth, you will not have the opportunity to bear your own children in heaven.
The beauty of adoption
And yet . . . there are so many children who need good and loving parents!
People who adopt children here on earth are doing a tremendous service not only for the children, but for God. That’s because God tenderly loves all children, and wants them all to experience the love of parents who will raise them to be good, thoughtful, and loving adults—and future angels.
If you are unable to have your own children, but you want children and are able to adopt, I greatly encourage you to do so.
There are many orphaned children who would thrive on your love, your teaching, and your example. And every child has the potential to become an angel in heaven. By raising children here on earth, whether or not they are your own biological children, you are helping to provide angels for God’s kingdom in heaven.
Yes, adopting children can be a challenge. But it is a challenge that is worth it if you feel called to be a parent and raise children in a good and loving home. And please consider the possibility of being a foster or adoptive parent to an older child or teenager. Many are waiting and longing to have parents to love and be loved by.
Now let’s move on to becoming a parent in heaven.
Children who die don’t automatically become angels
Traditional artwork depicting angels as little cherubs with wings might give the impression that babies and children who die become angels immediately, and stay forever little just as they were when they died.
But according to Emanuel Swedenborg (1688–1772), who spent many years exploring the spiritual world while still living in his physical body, that’s not how it works.
Yes, children who die are still children after they die. But they don’t stay that way forever. Swedenborg wrote:
Children who die are still children in the other life. They have the same kind of childlike mind, the same innocence in their ignorance, the same total delicateness—they are only in the rudiments of becoming angels; for children are not angels in being but only angels in becoming. Everyone who leaves this world stays in the same state of life—a baby is in the state of a baby, a child in the state of a child, an adolescent or adult or senior in the state of an adolescent, an adult, or a senior. However, this state eventually changes. (Heaven and Hell #330)
The only thing that changes about us right after we die is that we are no longer in our physical body. Our mind is still the same. We have the same thoughts, feelings, ideas, beliefs, attitudes, and character that we had here on earth. So if we die as a baby, child, or teen, we will still be a baby, child, or teen when we arrive in the spiritual world immediately after death. We will even have a spiritual body that looks and feels just like our previous physical one.
Of course, our life does change in many ways because we are no longer with the parents, teachers, and friends that we had here on earth. We are in the spiritual world rather than in the physical world. On the positive side, this means that if we were living with poverty, disease, war, or abuse, we will no longer have to suffer those things. Every child in heaven is provided all the love and care she or he needs to thrive.
But we are still ourselves. That means that if we die as a child, we still have to grow up in heaven before we become angels.
For more on children in the afterlife, see the article, Where are my Children who have Died? Will I Ever See Them Again?
Children who die need angel parents to raise them
Because babies, children, and teens are still babies, children, and teens after they die, they need parents to raise them just as they do on earth. Swedenborg wrote:
As soon as children are reawakened (which happens immediately after their death), they are taken to heaven and given to female angels who had loved children tenderly during their physical lives and had loved God as well. Since in this world they had loved all children with a kind of maternal tenderness, they accept these new ones as their own, and the children love them as their mothers as though this were inborn in them. Each such angel has as many children as her spiritual maternal nature wants. (Heaven and Hell #332)
Keep in mind that this was written in the eighteenth century, when gender roles were much more clearly defined than they are in the Western world today. These days, even in heaven I suspect that men are more involved in child-raising than they were in the 1700s when Swedenborg wrote Heaven and Hell. And yet, even today women and mothers provide the lion’s share of the everyday care of babies and children.
Mother and Children
Given that there are tens of thousands of children dying every day, and millions every year, Swedenborg’s statement that every angel who wants to care for children “has as many children as her spiritual maternal nature wants” almost sounds like an understatement. I can imagine new adult arrivals in heaven being greeted with this celestial billboard:
Angel Parents Needed!
Please Sign Up Here!
So fear not.
If you long for children, but for whatever reason do not have them here on earth, there will be plenty of opportunity to love, care for, and raise children when you arrive in heaven. And you will have the satisfaction of knowing that every child you raise in heaven will become one of God’s angels, adding to the richness of the heavenly community. As Jesus said:
Take care that you do not despise one of these little ones; for, I tell you, in heaven their angels continually see the face of my Father in heaven. (Matthew 18:10)
This article is a response to a spiritual conundrum submitted by a reader.
For further reading:
- Where are my Children who have Died? Will I Ever See Them Again?
- How does Marriage Fit In with a Spiritual Life? Is There Marriage in Heaven?
- The Afterlife: It’s Not as Different as you Think!
- What Happens To Us When We Die?
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Lee Woofenden is an ordained minister, writer, editor, translator, and teacher. He enjoys taking spiritual insights from the Bible and the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg and putting them into plain English as guides for everyday life.
Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life 
Hello, Lee. I see you’re a Swedenborgian. Good for you. I like Swedenborg’s ideas very much and read a great deal of his work a few years ago. But I gradually came to believe through what I was reading about mediums, phonies and supposed real ones, that all mediumship is unreal–that God has clearly separated the two worlds so that no spirits make physical contact with our world far as communication goes. Yes, guardian spirits can pull us out of a jam once in a while according to God’s wishes, but that for the most part guardian angels stand by and watch helplessly as unfortunate children are raped, abused, starved, subjected to the worst horrors imaginable in war and tragic circumstances without lifting a finger. So that pretty much did it for me far as believing Swedenborg was having genuine contacts with angels. I still enjoy reading about his “visions” of what heaven must be like, but I can’t accept them as factual.
But addressing the issue of not having children in this life when we want them, I believe that God should be nothing if not somewhat fair, and most people who desperately want children but never had any were likely trapped in circumstances not of their own making, such as women who were born infertile or developed it somewhere along the path of life. These unfortunates were dealt a bum hand from the very beginning and it doesn’t seem fair to me that if it’s God’s will that we should be made happy, if not on this earth then in the spirit world, and if we carry the exact same personality with us into the spirit world, most of these women are going to remain unhappy about their unfortunate circumstances for quite a while, possibly even continue to resent God, which is a horrible detriment to being able to evolve to higher planes. It’s difficult, if not impossible for a person who wanted such a basic unselfish need as bearing children here on earth to accept never be able to experience the joys of having children in the next world. In a sense, they were set up to fail against their will from the get-go. It’s not like they can be blamed for bad choices—at least in those circumstances choices were offered. And it’s not like they were after carnal things like fame, fortune, sex, and power and material delights, etc —those can be easily dismissed as well as unsuitable pursuits in this world and the next. But if God truly wants to fulfill what makes us happy and He gives women a command to “Be fruitful and multiply” and then takes away that ability, then He can’t be called a fair and just God, can He, when He yanks the rug right out from underneath women? Indeed, it calls into question the very validity of believing God even spoke those words; rather that they were just concocted by scribes writing out Creation legends of Adam and Eve in the Old Testament.
In sum, it seems to me that it is a dichotomy to call God fair and just in this matter when the one good impulse women have in this world is robbed of them through no fault of their own and then is not remedied in the next. For many women, raising other people’s children just doesn’t fulfill this innate need they have to bear their own. According to the Bible God created spiritual beings we call angels today. That may be myth, it may not be. But if there is any truth to it then I see no reason why He couldn’t allow women to do the same i.e. give birth to spiritual babies who are nurtured and then sent to earth to be given a physical life. It validates the idea that spirits come forth first in the spirit world and then are planted in a physical body here on earth. Maybe this is how God accomplishes the task. I mean, why create spirits Himself when He has a whole army of women who have died childless ready, willing and able to undertake the task for Him?
Hi Jack,
You are, of course, free to believe what you wish regarding Swedenborg, women and children, the pre-existence of souls, and every other matter under the sun.
However, about Swedenborg’s writings vs. spirit mediums in particular, you might want to consider what he himself wrote about the source of the teachings and Bible interpretations in his writings:
This is part of the clearest statement Swedenborg made in his published writings about the nature of his spiritual experiences. You can read the whole section here.
Short version: Swedenborg was not a spirit medium. Though he did speak with angels and spirits, he did not derive the teachings and Bible interpretations in his writings from angels and spirits, but, in his own words, “from the Lord alone while he was reading the Word.”
If you are going to reject the possibility that angels and spirits can speak with humans on earth, then you might as well just throw away the Bible. The Bible is full of angels and spirits talking to human beings. And if God arranges for this to happen in the Bible, there’s no particular reason why God can’t arrange for it to happen outside of the Bible as well, when it suits God’s purposes.
Now about women longing for but not being able to have children in the material world:
On this you are also welcome to your own views and opinions.
However, I would suggest, especially in these modern times, that you not limit the usefulness and fulfillment of women to having children. It’s been sufficiently demonstrated by now that women can be very capable and gain great satisfaction and fulfillment from activities and careers other than having children. So to suggest that women who are unable to have children are doomed to an empty, unfulfilled life is simply unrealistic.
Both women and men long for many things that they cannot have. Part of the spiritual lesson that we learn here on earth is the lesson of patience and endurance in suffering and unfulfilled desires and wishes. A man may long to be the CEO of a Fortune 500 company, or to be President of the United States, and think that is his destiny. Yet he may never be able to attain the desired-for position. Does that mean he is doomed to an empty, unfulfilled life? No. It means that he must focus on serving humanity where he is, and not throw up his hands in despair because he isn’t where he wishes he were.
In the very same way, women who wish for children, but cannot have them for one reason or another, have many options open to them to serve and find fulfillment in other ways. And for those who are strongly drawn to caring for and raising infants and children, there are many, many infants and children who desperately need care and desperately need parents. Perhaps God is telling these women to expand their hearts and minds, and extend their love beyond their desire for their own biological children. It doesn’t mean these women are being punished. It means that they may be called to a broadening of heart and mind, and an opening of their spirit to needy infants and children whom they might not otherwise have paid any attention to.
God’s ways are higher than our ways. We look at the immediate circumstances, and our wants and desires in the moment. God looks at the eternal happiness of our souls. When we are denied joys and pleasures that we desperately long for, that doesn’t mean God is punishing us. It certainly has causes, but from God’s perspective, those causes are secondary to the possibilities for spiritual growth within the heartbreaks and suffering that we experience here on earth.
The joy that God seeks to give us is not temporary, earthly joy but eternal, spiritual joy. And all women and men who are denied desired-for joys here on earth can still dedicate their life to the service of others, and increasingly experience a deeper joy that they otherwise may never have experienced.
As for the unfairness of this world, here are some articles that may help put things into perspective:
I hope these articles will offer you some new perspectives to consider on the big issues you are struggling with.
Sir thank you for your insight. I am 47 years old with no children. I strongly desired…submitted papers n money… to adopt a baby prior to getting married at 43 but after marriage my husband who has 1 son then age 20 could not come to terms of adoption. He wanted the 3 of us to b a family….first wife decease. Prior to getting married I had helped raised several adult Children n I now did not feel like raising another with no hope of having a family of our own. …Disgusted hurt n discouraged I begged God to remove these feeling of being a mother. Now 4.5 years later I am coming into the change of accepting that I won’t b a mother….its a process….now he wants to adopt. I’m so turned off n want nothing to do with the thought of adoption or sharing a child with him or being associated with his own son. I know it’s wrong but I don’t have the physical or mental strength to start this journey again. I told him like he told me at one time….if u want kids …go get them. I need God to heal n fill this void with new things that will allow me to move on ….please advise!
Hi dawn,
Thanks for stopping by, and for your comment. I’m sorry to hear about all of your struggles, both with your own unfulfilled longing to have a child and with your disconnect (in two directions) with your husband on this issue. It is a hard road. And of course, only you can decide what to do and how to move forward. Meanwhile, I do have a few thoughts that I hope will be helpful.
First, it sounds like you have a serious rift with your husband about all this. One way or another, that is going to have to be resolved if the marriage is to continue as a real marriage. The two of you will have to come to some common understanding of this whole issue, or it will drive you apart. What that understanding will be I can’t say. It can only unfold over time.
Second, as I’m sure you’re well aware, raising a child is not something you do in your spare time. To do a good job of it your heart needs to be in it and you need to be 100% committed to it. If you aren’t, then adopting is not a good idea. And it would be a mistake to let your husband talk you into it if your heart and mind have moved on and you no longer feel prepared and committed to adopt and raise a child.
Third, as I’m sure you’re also aware, bearing or adopting children becomes more of a challenge as you get older. You have to count the number of years from now to when the child will be a grown, self-responsible adult and consider whether by the later years before that time you think you will still have the health and energy you need to do the work of being a mother. Yes, of course there are many joys in child-raising. But there is also an awful lot of hard work involved!
Fourth, if your husband wants to adopt, but you’re not so sure, another possibility would be to foster or adopt an older child, especially an older boy. Though many parents want to adopt infants and raise a child from infancy, there are also many older orphans, going right up through the teenage years, who would love to have someone to call Mom and Dad. And they are often forgotten precisely because they aren’t cute little babies and toddlers. And with an older boy specifically, he would likely identify with your husband—and not to put too fine a point on it, but it would be especially your husband’s job to provide him guidance, a role model, and do father/son things with him. Of course, you would still be his mother, and you would still have an important relationship with him, so your heart would still need to be in it as well. But this might be a way to make sure that it’s not your husband’s bright idea, but your job to do the actual work—which could lead to a lot of resentment and conflict. And that would not be good for you, for your relationship with your husband, or for any child you adopted.
Once again, these are just thoughts and possibilities that come to mind. Only you are in your shoes, so only you can decide what direction to go with all of this. I would recommend doing the best you can to calm your bitterness, recognize that the past is in the past, and consider what you want for your own present and future. Having a goal for your life is helpful. It gives you something to focus your energy and time on, and gain satisfaction from.
I hope this helps. Our thoughts and prayers will be with you. And speaking of prayer, it might not hurt to take this all to God in the quietness of prayer, and see if God whispers anything in your heart.
To a reader named lwer344131212:
Thanks for your comments. They are much too personal and raw for me to approve for others to read. But I want you to know that I did read them, and I do feel for you in your struggles. There is too much for me to respond to in a comment, but here are a few other articles that might be helpful to you:
Hi again, Lee. I was curious not only about having a family in heaven, but also, more generally, about heaven’s population itself. We’re pretty well aware now that climate change is near (and some scientists would say beyond) the point of no return. With that in mind, it is a frank, if grim, realization that the human race itself (in this universe, at least) may be sealing its fate due to its greed and short-sightedness.
So, when our species goes extinct, will heaven and hell effectively cease their population growth, since no new souls would exist? Could Swedenborg’s writing about souls on other planets (and possibly universes, per the multiverse theory) offer us any insights about such a thing?
Now, a more practical question I have about population growth and possible stagnancy in heaven is this: for those angels that love raising children and having families, what will they do in the event the human race becomes extinct in the physical world? Everybody grows up and leaves the nest eventually, but what will angel mothers and fathers do if the time comes they no longer have any children to raise? I trust that God knows what to do when such a time comes, but I would still appreciate your thoughts.
God bless,
Chad
Hi Chad,
Based on our current knowledge of cosmology, individual planets will come and go, along with their ability to support human life. It is likely that our particular species will migrate to other planets before our earth becomes uninhabitable. However, according to Swedenborg, the people on other planets are mostly more spiritually oriented and less focused on material things than the people on our planet, and they therefore do not develop high technology as we do. This would mean that their species of human will live and die with the life and death of their planet.
It is the way of the material universe for everything to be born, have its life cycle, and die. It is no surprise that it would be the same for whole species of humans and their planets. So yes, when a particular planet becomes uninhabitable by humans (Swedenborg viewed the intelligent inhabitants of all planets as human), there will be no more new souls from that planet populating heaven, and the particular heavens associated with that planet will cease to grow numerically. Meanwhile, the heavens associated with other planets that are still habitable will continue to add to the overall numbers of heaven.
This is just a larger scale version of what happens to the heavens that come from particular cultures at particular time periods in history. There are no more ancient Hebrews, Greeks, or Romans populating heaven at this day, since those cultures have long since passed into history. This means that there would rarely, if ever, be new inhabitants added to the heavens and the communities that came from those cultures—and from many others that have existed over the history of humanity on this earth. However, the people in those communities continue to grow spiritually, and they are with the people they love and care about the most, so the lack of new people in their communities and heavens doesn’t put a damper on their lives. They can also receive visitors if they wish, just as we can here on earth. But many are content just to live with the people, and in the communities, that they know and love.
Swedenborg does say that if a particular planet becomes uninhabitable, the spirits and angels that came from it will be associated with another compatible planet so that they can continue to have a relationship with people still living in the physical universe. This might also mean that angels who love to raise children could still raise children that had been born on another planet. However, I suspect that the lives of angels do ebb and flow. There may come a time when particular angels move on to other “occupations” besides raising children, just as people on this earth who have been focused on raising a family move on to other activities after their children have grown. My own mother loved raising her eight children. But when we were all grown up and out of the house, she had plenty of projects to keep herself productive, busy, and happy.
Ultimately, only God knows the answer to all of these really big cosmological questions. We humans are still seeking answers, and probably always will be. Meanwhile, these are some of my thoughts on your good questions.
Hi Lee,
I must admit that I’m bothered by the idea of couples not being able to bear children in the afterlife. Yes, I know pregnancy is, well, not the most beautiful thing in the world for a woman, and birth is terribly painful, but I have never seen any kind of bond like that between loving parents and their biological children. The profound, transcendent love that a mother and father feel looking into their newborn’s eyes for the first time is, I personally believe, among the greatest evidence for God’s existence, that in a cold world of darwinism, we can experience that kind of love.
Let me preface what I’m about to say with the following: I truly admire parents who adopt, who open their hearts to give a neglected child a happy life, and I am in no way demeaning or putting down adoption. Anyways, what about infertile couples who yearn for children of their own flesh and blood? Yes, they could adopt children in heaven, but that kind of longing and hole in one’s heart is a heavy one that is not easily filled with a “substitute” (I don’t mean for this point to be taken with offense, but I feel the need to be blunt). I can’t help but question the idea of intercourse between angels producing this nebulous offspring of spiritual wisdom and truth (I might be misquoting that), rather than the miracle of childbirth and more angelic life. This is one point that I am deeply bothered by in Swedenborgian theology, and I honestly find the Mormon position (minus polygamy) of being able to have children in the afterlife far more amiable. Thanks for your thoughts and any insight you can offer!
Chad
Hi Chad,
I do understand the desire of parents to have biological children of their own. Yes, it creates a bond that is hard to duplicate with adopted children.
However, consider the possibility that that’s because as long as we’re living here on earth, in addition to being spiritual life forms, we are biological life forms. Yes, we are humans, and spiritual beings. But here on earth we are also animals, and biological beings. We have all the biological drives and desires of the other animals that do not have our higher spiritual levels (see: “Will We See our Pets Again in Heaven?”). Having biological children satisfies that biologically powerful drive to reproduce ourselves, and pass on our genes to another generation.
This is not the case in the spiritual world. In the spiritual world, we leave our physical body behind, and with it, the biological drives that are part of us as a result of our evolutionary history. There, we do things based on our ruling (or dominant) love—whatever we have made it to be here on earth through our choices and actions. We no longer have a biological drive to reproduce ourselves and pass on our genes, because we no longer have a biological component to our being.
Yes, our spiritual body is “organic” in the sense of being just as highly structured and organized as our physical body is. But it responds, not to the physical and biological forces of the material world, which, in biological beings, focus on reproduction and continuation of the species, but on higher spiritual forces that focus on the reproduction of our ideas and our loves—which are precisely the sort of “children” couples bear in the spiritual world.
For people who have adopted earthly and materialistic dominant loves here on earth, the spiritual world can indeed be frustrating, precisely because it is not conducive to expressing materialistic desires. Swedenborg mentions earthly-minded spirits who lament their state in the spiritual world, and are always attempting (unsuccessfully, of course) to get back to the material world, where they could fully indulge their materialistic desires. But . . . not to put too fine a point on it, that’s just one of the reasons why it’s a bad idea to focus our life on worldly drives such as a desire for personal wealth and power. The spiritual literature of all of humankind advises us against doing this, and for very good reason.
Meanwhile, for those who do what we’re supposed to do here, and develop their spiritual self through focusing their life on God and the well-being of their fellow human beings, leaving this earthly world comes as a liberation and a lifting up to a whole new level that their spirit has longed for all along. Material and biological drives and needs no longer get in the way of expressing their true inner loves and ideas, which all have to do with developing the mind, the heart, and loving relationships with fellow human beings (now angels), and with God.
Even angels who raise children in the other life do not do so in order to perpetuate the species, still less to perpetuate their own genes. Rather, they do it to raise up, train, and guide new citizens of God’s eternal kingdom, which is the kingdom of heaven. The satisfactions of biological reproduction are replaced with the deeper satisfactions of bringing new angels, who express new aspects of the Divine nature, into the vast community of heaven, making that community stronger and richer.
Wanting biological children here on earth is certainly not wrong. In fact, it is very good. It is a natural drive and desire of human beings that God put into our biology for a most excellent reason. The ultimate reason for that drive is so that this earth can serve as a seedbed for heaven.
In heaven, angels who care for children are engaged, not in the biological part of that great good, but in its spiritual part, in keeping with their residency in the spiritual world.
Since everything is for a purpose and sex is not only for pleasure but also creation, wouldn’t be reasonable that there may be a sort of spiritual conception in Heaven? I know Swedenborg says there isn’t but are we going to assume he knows EVERYTHING about Heaven? I doubt it. But I am only hoping.
Hi Moore,
On this question, please see scroll down to the section titled “Spiritual children” in this article:
Marriage in the Resurrection: The Deeper Meaning
This comforted me so much I know I’ll never bear children on earth and I’m kind of a loser I always had a fantasy life where I had a husband and we could have kids in heaven and now I know will be raising angels for enternity can’t wait
Hi Dande,
Glad you found some comfort in the article. It’s always good to have hope. And . . . we never know what God has in store for us.
What about Isaiah 65:21-23? Will we build houses in heaven? Not bear children in calamity?
Hi WorldQuestioner,
About Isaiah 65:21-23, yes, people in heaven do live in houses just as people on earth do. And yes, they will dwell in peace, without fear of calamity.
However, especially when applied to heaven and the spiritual world, the message of this passage, like that of the rest of the Prophets and of the Bible as a whole, is spiritual rather than literal. It is about dwelling in peace in one’s spirit, enjoying the fruits of spiritual love and wisdom, and bearing “children” of new insight and mutual understanding. There are no literal children born in the spiritual world. See:
If We Don’t Have Children while Alive, Will We Be Able to Have Children in the Afterlife?
Why aren’t children reincarnated just once? I did read your article on reincarnation and you don’t believe in reincarnation. Or why aren’t children just born twice rather than three times?
Hi WorldQuestioner,
There is no need for us to be born more than once physically. Our life here on earth is like our life in the womb. It is where we are formed for our real life in the spiritual world. We don’t have to come back to earth any more than we have to go back into our mother’s womb.
If someone wants to have children to carry their genes, they will have to do it on Earth. So… Will there be no DNA in heaven? Will there not be genetic connections? Will my heavenly parents not be the same as the earthly parents? Will I not view my earthly mother as “mother” in heaven? No biological connection? Rearranged?
Hi WorldQuestioner,
In heaven we will have the spiritual equivalent of physical DNA, because we will have spiritual bodies that will be human in every way, and in fact, more human than our physical bodies here on earth. However, that DNA will not be based on physical biology, or biological connections, precisely because it will be spiritual DNA, not physical and biological DNA.
Specifically, our spiritual DNA will be our “ruling love,” and will be based on our ruling love. Our ruling love is what we love most of all, which determines who we are as a person. It will fall into one of the four general categories of love of the Lord, love of the neighbor, love of the world (material things), and love of self. People who put love of the Lord or love of the neighbor first in their heart and priorities will be in heaven. People who put love of the world or love of self first in their heart and priorities will be in hell.
This spiritual DNA is independent of our parents’ DNA, though it might be influenced by it.
In the spiritual world, at first we will know and see all of the people we have known here on earth, including family members and friends. And at first we will have the same relationships with them that we did here on earth. This, I believe, will last as long as anyone we had known on earth has not yet joined us in the spiritual world.
However, over time our relationships will not be based on earthly or biological relationships, but on spiritual relationships. We will continue to have a relationship with earthly family members, friends, and acquaintances who are compatible with our own ruling love and spiritual position. Relationships with people who are incompatible with us spiritually will gradually fade away. The same thing commonly happens over the years even here on earth.
Meanwhile, earthly intergenerational relationships (father/son, mother/daughter, and so on) will fade over time, and become sibling relationships. That is because in heaven, God is everyone’s Father/Parent. All others relate to one another as brothers and sisters. That is why Jesus said:
Still, we can retain our familiar family relationships as long as they are necessary and helpful to us. We will not be ripped away from family members. Rather, we will all become angels, and will relate to one another based on spiritual kinship rather than on biological kinship. Then we will forget who was our earthly mother or father or son or daughter because we will no longer need those types of relationships.
But once again, this does not happen until we are ready for it. And if we are spiritually close to grandparents, parents, children, grandchildren, and so on, we will continue to have a relationship with those people, but over time it will be transformed into a brother/sister relationship.
Can you comment on what https://www.gotquestions.org/world-overpopulated.html says?
Hi WorldQuestioner,
As with the other articles on GotQuestions, the answer given to the question is based on a materialistic view of Creation and a literalistic view of the Bible. It’s pretty much a non-answer.
Humans were never meant to live in the physical world forever. The physical world was designed as a temporary home to prepare us for our eternal life in the spiritual world. It is like our mother’s womb. We were never intended to live there forever.
Have you seen https://deeptruths.com/posters/born-in-heaven.html? I bet you would disagree with it.
Hi WorldQuestioner,
About babies born in heaven? No. Even the administrator of the site seems uncertain about that, and is apparently considering taking the post down. I also don’t believe that heaven will be on earth. There is a lot of literalistic thinking in the article.
On the other hand, I do agree that there will be human relationships and a normal, happy human life in heaven, including eating, drinking, marriage, and sex. It is nice to hear someone else saying sensible things about what life in heaven will be like.
I didn’t see very many Scriptures quoted in this article. If I want to learn something about heaven, I need solid Biblical backing.
Hi Rob,
Thanks for stopping by, and for your comment. However, most of what the Bible says about heaven is metaphorical, such as, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field . . . .” (Matthew 13:24). The Bible is more concerned with how we live in this life than with how we live in the next. That’s because the Bible is about how to get to heaven, not about what we’ll be doing when we get there. We can glean a few things here and there, but the simple truth is that there is no clear description of the afterlife in the Bible. That’s why Christians disagree so much about what it will be like. In fact, Christians can’t even agree on whether the afterlife will be in the material world or the spiritual world.
God created angels and mankind separately, in fact the bible teaches that angels were in existence before the creation of man. I wish you would make it clear that your article is theoretical rather than truth, which can only be found in the Word.
Hi Harold,
Thanks for stopping by, and for your comment.
However, the Bible does not teach that angels were in existence before the creation of man, nor does it say that God created angels and mankind separately. These are popular misconceptions based on beliefs developed in the traditional Christian church from books that are not part of the Bible.
Please see:
What is the Biblical Basis for Humans becoming Angels after they Die?
is the separate creation of angels, and the existence of angels before the creation of humanity, based on apocrypha or deuterocanonical books? Which ones for example?
Hi World Questioner,
It’s been many years since I looked into it. I believe it is not based on the Apocrypha, but other ancient books that are not even part of the Catholic Bible. However, I could be mistaken about that.
the Lord speaks:
Job 38:1-7 NIV
[1] Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said: [2] “Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge? [3] Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. [4] “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. [5] Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? [6] On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone— [7] while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
Where did the angels in verse 7 come from?
Hi Harold,
This is clearly a poetic passage, not a literal one. Does the earth have foundations? Did God literally stretch a measuring line across it? Does the earth have footings and a cornerstone? Did the morning stars literally sing? The angels in verse 7 are a poetic expression just like all the rest. If this is where people get the idea that angels pre-exist humans, then they are unable to read poetry as poetry. These are metaphors, not literal expositions. The great literalism of so-called Christianity today is the source of most of its false doctrine. If you believe this passage teaches that angels were shouting for joy at the time God created the earth, then you must also believe it teaches that stars can sing, and that the earth has a cornerstone and foundations like a building. The whole idea is silly.
Hi Harold,
Also, where did the stars come from if they were not created until the fourth day, but the earth was already there on the first day? If the stars were not there when the earth was created as described in Genesis 1, then why would the angels be there? Once again, these are poetic passages. Taking them literally causes the Bible to contradict itself.
You are absolutely correct, it is poetry! However, you chalk it off as unreliable because it’s poetry? The poetic terms and phrases in these verses describe God’s command over all of his creation beautifully and accurately. The morning stars in verse 7 refer to the angels, not the stars in the sky as you describe. Have you read the Psalms? There are no contradictions in the Scriptures if you understand the poetry as intended, even in a literal sense.
Hi Harold,
Not “unreliable.” Non-literal. Poetry isn’t “unreliable” if it doesn’t accurately portray existing reality in literal terms. If a poet says “the stars sing,” when we know that the stars don’t sing, it’s not “unreliable.” It’s metaphorical. The idea that the Bible can be reliable only if everything in it is literally true is a materialistic and fleshly view of the Bible. It is contrary to the spirit that gives life.
Even if the stars do refer to the angels, that still doesn’t fix the problem with reading these verses in Job as proof that angels were literally created before the earth. First of all, angels are not stars, and stars are not angels, so right off the bat, it is “unreliable” if we try to read it literally. It is a metaphor, not a literal expression.
Ditto for the earth having a cornerstone and foundations. This is obviously a metaphor derived from building construction. The earth is not a building made of stone and wood. The process of building a house is being used as a metaphor for God’s creation of the world. In your way of reading it, we would have to say that the earth has a cornerstone and foundations, which it doesn’t. Much better to take it metaphorically, because these are clearly metaphors.
Further, since there is no mention of the creation of angels in the Creation stories of Genesis 1, we have the problem of why such an important part of God’s creation is not mentioned when the creation of the universe is described. It is inconceivable that God would allow such an important omission. It talks about the heavens being created, but it says nothing about God populating the heavens with angels.
And if we try to shoehorn angels into the creation stories using the metaphor of stars as angels, it still doesn’t solve your problem, because the stars were created on the fourth day, three days after both the heavens and the earth were created. So angels would still not be present when the earth was created.
It just doesn’t add up.
If you’re going to take these verses in Job as literal proof that the angels were literally present at the time God created the earth, then you must also take them as literal proof that the earth has a cornerstone and foundations, and that stars are literally angels, literally singing in the sky. And if the stars are actually angels, then you must accept that the angels were created after the earth, not before it, or you are rejecting the order of creation in Genesis 1.
In short, any attempt to take these verses in Job literally as proof that the angels were present when God created the physical earth quickly gets a person tangled up in hopeless contradictions and inconsistencies.
You are making assumptions. I did not say that I read poetry literally, you did. You discard my interpretation of verse 7 because it doesn’t fit with yours. I am not hung up on when the angels were created, but simply questioning a theory that angels were once people. That is all. I worry that you state this as fact, and I worry that many people are being mislead as a result. God has laid out his plan for us in the bible in great detail and yet there is no mention of becoming angels. When we die, our souls are reunited with Christ who rules in heaven. Then as Christ comes down to earth a second time, our once imperfect physical bodies will be made perfect and reunited with our souls, all this in a flash, and we will be together and worship Him forever, not as angels, but as his chosen people!
Hi Harold,
You are, of course, free to believe whatever you want to believe. But that is a very materialistic view of our future life. Even Paul says that we have a physical body and a spiritual body, and that it is sown a physical body and raised a spiritual body. Spiritual things are not material.
But I understand that many people cannot think beyond the physical realm, and must believe that we will be resurrected in our physical body or they would not believe in an afterlife at all. If that is what you need to believe to maintain your faith, then I have no desire to argue you out of it.
However, back to your original comment, the Bible simply doesn’t say that angels were created separately from humans. And whenever angels appear, they are called “men.” The very word “angel” in the original languages simply means “messenger.” There is every indication that the people who received angel visitors simply thought of them as human beings who were special envoys for God. Even angels put themselves on the level of humans in Revelation 19:10; 22:8–9.
Once again, please see:
What is the Biblical Basis for Humans becoming Angels after they Die?
The Bible never speaks of angels as a separate order of creation. It always speaks of them and portrays them as human. The Bible’s presentation of angels is much more supportive of the idea that angels are simply people that have moved on to heaven than it is of the idea that angels are a separately created race of beings.
We will be given physical bodies after we die, or when Christ comes back, whichever comes first. The scriptures are clear on that.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23 NIV
[20] But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [21] For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. [22] For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. [23] But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Will our bodies not be raised when Christ returns as his body was on his ressurection, a physical body as proven to a doubting Thomas?
John 20:27 NIV
[27] Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
And what about the bodies raised at the time of Christ’s death. Why would tombs be opened unless a physical body is to be raised?
Matthew 27:51-53 NIV
[51] At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split [52] and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. [53] They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many…
Hi Harold,
Yes, we are raised in a body. But none of these passages say that we are raised in a physical body. In the one place where the Bible says what kind of body we will be raised in, it says we will be raised in a spiritual body, which is distinct from a physical body:
Further on in the same passage, Paul says:
Clearly we are not raised in our physical body made of flesh and blood, but in our spiritual body.
Christ also was not raised in a physical body. A physical body cannot pass through locked doors and suddenly disappear, as Christ’s post-resurrection body did. That body was solid and real, but it could not possibly be made of physical matter, or it would not be able to do what it did. And the Bible never says that Christ was raised in a physical body, just as it never says that we are raised in a physical body.
The ones who came out of the tombs at the time of Jesus’ death also did not return in physical bodies. Otherwise we would have stories about their continued life and fellowship with the believers in Jerusalem. But we have no such stories. Only that they “appeared to many” (Matthew 27:53). It does not say, “They appeared to many in their physical bodies.” Clearly they were raised in their spiritual bodies and seen briefly by many of the believers in Jerusalem, and then moved on to the spiritual world. That’s why there are no stories of their continued life with the believers.
Once again, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe. But the Bible simply doesn’t say that we are raised in our physical body. In fact, it denies this, and says that we are raised in a spiritual body. This is precisely what we teach here at Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Paul sums it all up by saying:
The message here is that we are first physical, then spiritual. We are first made of dust (physical matter), and live in our physical body, but then we are made of heavenly material (spiritual substance), and live in our spiritual body. First we are of dust, and then we are of heaven.
Or in plain English, first we live in the material world, in our physical body, then we live in the spiritual world, in our spiritual body, in heaven.
Once again, this is precisely what we teach here at Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
You are therefore free to continue to believe that we are raised in our physical bodies if that is what you need to believe to maintain your faith. But as for me, I will continue to believe that the Bible teaches, which is that we are raised in our spiritual bodies to live eternally in heaven.
Thanks for being patient in your responses. I’m just sorry you don’t see it. God’s ways are higher than ours. It doesn’t have to make logical sense if you have faith in the Almighty.
When Christ returns, our earthly bodies that are buried will be returned to us but will be changed to be glorious. We will still be recognizable, flesh and blood, and we know this because this happened to Jesus. He is the first fruit.
Luke 24:37-43 NIV
[37] They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. [38] He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? [39] Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” [40] When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. [41] And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” [42] They gave him a piece of broiled fish, [43] and he took it and ate it in their presence.
Philippians 3:21 NIV
[21] who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
And sorry, angels are created beings, we will not become angels… Psalm 148: 2 and 5
Psalms 148:1-5 NIV
[1] Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights above. [2] Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts. [3] Praise him, sun and moon; praise him, all you shining stars. [4] Praise him, you highest heavens and you waters above the skies. [5] Let them praise the name of the Lord, for at his command they were created,
The very best part … we will be with Christ and see him as he is forever!
Hi Harold,
Yes, we will be with Christ and see him as he is forever. That will be the case whether we are raised from death physically or spiritually.
And once again, if you need to believe that we will be raised physically in order to maintain your faith, then there’s no use in my trying to argue you out of it. That is precisely why the Bible is written to accommodate people who must believe in physical resurrection, because they cannot think of spiritual things as anything other than wispy and ghostly things. In reality, though, the spiritual world is much more real and solid than this shadowy physical world.
And once again, the Bible doesn’t actually say that we will be raised physically, in our physical bodies. But it does speak as if we are, because when we are raised in our spiritual bodies in the spiritual world, we will not be able to tell the difference. We will think that we are still in our physical bodies because our spiritual bodies are so similar that we cannot tell the difference at first. So the Bible speaks as if we will be raised in our physical bodies because it is aimed mostly at people of simple thought and faith, and there is no need to confuse them with technicalities of physical vs. spiritual bodies.
This is why even Paul’s statements about being sown physical and raised spiritual are subject to different interpretations, including the common one that you subscribe to, that our physical body will be transformed into a spiritual body.
So you are free to continue to believe as you wish. But I will point out once again that none of the passages you have quoted actually say that we will be raised in our physical body. Even when the tombs are opened and people rise up from them, it doesn’t say their physical bodies rose up. It says that they rose up. And it is our spirit that makes us who we are. The physical body is just an extra added-on part that is of use to us during our lifetime in the physical world.
Also, the Psalm you quote does not say that angels are a separate creation. No place in the Bible says that. The Psalm speaks of angels in the heights praising God, but it doesn’t say that they are a separate creation.
Part of the problem here is thinking that no human being has yet been resurrected. This is a common view based on the idea of the Last Judgment. But the Last Judgment has been misunderstood. The Last Judgment takes place in the spiritual world, not in the physical world, as covered in this article:
Is the World Coming to an End? What about the Second Coming?
As pointed out in that article, when John describes the events of the Second Coming in the book of Revelation, he says that he saw these things “in the spirit.” In other words, everything he described, he saw in the spiritual world, not in the physical world. So it is a denial of John’s own description of the Last Judgment to say that it will all happen in the physical world.
Also, John saw all these things happening in the spiritual world in the present, not in the future. There was a Last Judgment that took place during John’s lifetime, which John saw in his spiritual visions. That Last Judgment involved the end of the Jewish religion as God’s flagship religion on earth, and the beginning of Christianity in that role. But John’s vision also provided a prophecy of the future Judgment on corrupted Christianity, which is taking place spiritually in our day.
The truth is that people are resurrected in the spiritual world as soon as they die. This is why Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). It is also why in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19–31, the rich man is already in Hades while his brothers are still alive on earth. If all people remained in the grave until a universal Last Judgment, this would not be possible, and Jesus would be painting a false picture of the afterlife. Jesus’ own words make it clear that we enter the spiritual world as soon as we die, and we continue our life there.
So yes, as in the Psalm, angels sing God’s praises. And those angels are people who have lived lives of faith and kindness here on earth, and have gone on to become angels in heaven. Nowhere does the Psalm say that angels are a separate creation. Nowhere does the Bible say that angels are a separate creation.
If you wish to believe that they are, then you are certainly welcome to do so. But don’t claim that the Bible teaches this, because it doesn’t.
I agree that the bible does not speak specifically on when the angels were created, but the conclusion in Psalm 148: 5 leads me to believe that they were created. It is a weak argument, I agree, but I was questioning your teachings on how you believe people will become angels after they die. That is an argument which also has very little biblical backing, as nowhere does it say that specifically in the Scriptures, and therefore should not be stated as fact.
You and I are much closer on the point of what our new bodies will be like, I don’t have a problem with your views on that. I also appreciate all of your replies. May God bless your ministry.
Hi Harold,
Thank you for your kind words.
I don’t claim that the Bible teaches that humans become angels. But I do believe that this is a stronger conclusion based on what the Bible does say than the idea that angels are a separate creation.
This is not an essential teaching. It is not necessary to believe it in order to be saved. It is therefore not something that God saw fit to put explicitly into the Bible. What is stated explicitly in the Bible is what’s necessary for us to believe and do in order to be saved and live in heaven to eternity.
I don’t attempt to claim, as some Christians do, that everything I believe is taught in the Bible. In fact, many things that Christians of all stripes believe are not actually taught in the Bible, but are “derived doctrine,” meaning conclusions various groups of humans have drawn based on their own particular interpretation of the Bible.
The things that are necessary to believe and do in order to be saved are all taught explicitly in the Bible. These are the essentials of Christian faith and life. Everything else is secondary doctrine, which can vary from church to church without negating those churches’ basic Christian identity.
Unfortunately, most nominally Christian churches today have rejected essential teachings of the Bible, and substituted human doctrines for them. That is why although I recognize that the Christian churches of today are socially and culturally Christian, I no longer think they are really Christian. They are not teaching what Christ teaches in the Bible, which means that they are not Christian.
However, many of their members are living by what Christ teaches in the Bible. There are many churches that are not themselves Christian, but that have many Christians as members. These churches are the “unmarked graves on which people unknowingly walk” (Luke 11:44).
I don’t see any Biblical basis for no children being born in Heaven, other than the interpretation of Matthew 22:30 and the corresponding verses in Mark and Luke as saying that there is no marriage in Heaven. But Swedenborg and subsequent Swedenborgians insist that that verse just says that we won’t “get married” and that there will be eternal unions in Heaven.
I see the Biblical basis you mentioned in https://leewoof.org/2015/04/16/what-is-the-biblical-basis-for-humans-becoming-angels-after-they-die/ for people becoming angels when they die, but I don’t see the same level of Biblical basis for there being no babies born in Heaven unless we assume that Jesus said in Matthew 22:30 that there is no marriage in Heaven. But Swedenborgians say there will be marriage in Heaven and that Jesus only said that we don’t “Get married.”
That’s all I can say right now. My screen time is out.
Hi World Questioner,
The Bible is primarily focused on telling us what we need to know to be saved and go to heaven. It does talk about other things as well, but it was never intended to be an encyclopedia of all spiritual knowledge.
Your wife is Anette. One more question, do you have children?
Hi World Questioner,
Yes. Three adult children, two grandchildren.
Do you teach them Swedenborg’s doctrines, so that they do not read the Bible materialistically but spiritually, and do not follow doctrines like the Trinity of Persons or Sola Fide? You weren’t raised Swedenborgian were you? If you didn’t grow up Swedenborgian, then when and how did you become Swedenborgian? If your children or grandchildren follow doctrines like the Trinity of Persons, penal substitution, or Sola Fide or read the Bible materialistically, then they do not heed their parents’ teachings. But if your children are not raised fundamentalist, then they are less likely to become apostates. The majority of Christian apostates grew up fundamentalist, right? At least, Christians who grow up fundamentalist are more likely to leave the Church, right?
Hi World Questioner,
I did grow up Swedenborgian. There are five or six generations going back on the patrilinear side of both my mother’s family and my father’s family. My father was also a Swedenborgian minister, and there were a number of Swedenborgian ministers on my mother’s side, including her father, her grandfather, and both her siblings. All of them are now deceased. My children did go to Swedenborgian Sunday School and such growing up, but now that they’re adults, they chart their own path, which is as it should be. I’m less interested in their specific beliefs than I am in whether they are living a good life, which all of them are. None of them has gone off the rails and become a fundamentalist. 😉
Is your wife Swedenborgian?
Whether there are notable Baptists, Lutherans, Catholics, or Calvinists that later converted to Swedenborgianism, or atheists that converted to Swedenborgianism, or Muslims that became Swedenborgian, is a good topic for a comment to an entirely different post.
Hi World Questioner,
Yes, she is.
I suppose that depends upon what you mean by “notable.” But I presume there are at least a few of each of these who have converted to Swedenborgianism over the years. Swedenborg himself grew up Lutheran, and “converted” to “Swedenborgianism.” The original founders of the organized New Church (Swedenborgian) in London, England, were mostly Anglicans and Methodists. When I was pastor of a Swedenborgian church in New England, a quarter to a third of the active members of my congregation were converted Catholics.
Hi Lee,
I have a question about children in the afterlife/“creating child”. I remember watching a video with a guy named Mike Marable “who has been traveling in other realities and timelines since 1987” and in this video he also says that what we experience is an illusion/simulation that “so many OBErs now say and are coming to a consensus”.
But in the video he says how “we really create animated thought forms which are indistinguishable from real human beings? The evidence via independent reporting suggests yes, although they reliant for maintenance on their creator.” He talks about how people can create children and stuff but it’s just thought forms? So basically creating whole worlds and you’re basically a god and all the people are just your thought forms and if you move on or don’t think of them then they disappear?
And even some people are saying that we become “electromagnetic signal” after we die? Which this is what these “thought forms” are and not the spirit or soul of your loved one? How could they even say this?
Like I remember reading someone having a “spiritual experience” of seeing a “dead world” and a voice said that “this is only one version of it” and then the entity showed all these other millions of different versions of those “worlds” came out and said all these worlds and people are populated by a single mind living out different experiences/avatars”?
This is the Youtube video here for reference of where I got the info from.
Thank you kindly Lee
Hi Sam,
I think someone posted this video for me once before.
I suspect that what’s happening is that people are creating virtual worlds for themselves in the spiritual world. If we can think about doing that here, and begin to create virtual realities via computer programming and virtual reality headsets, we can certainly do it much better in the spiritual world. It would be the spiritual equivalent the Star Trek holodeck, where anything you can imagine can be created through holographic projection, so that you are fully immersed in it and it seems completely real.
In such virtual realities, anything could happen—even things that are impossible in the actual reality of the spiritual world, such as having literal children.
Swedenborg himself spoke of “representations” of various scenes that are very much like today’s movies, but full-dimensional. He also spoke of people entering into various fantasies, such as believing that they were counting huge piles of gold when in fact they just had tiny little specks of gold on the table in front of them in their real spiritual life. And he spoke of people being able to relive entire scenes from their own memories as if they were there again, as brought about by angels who also had access to their memories. In other words, even way back in the 18th century Swedenborg described many elements of what today we would call fantasy and virtual reality taking place in the spiritual world.
If I recall this video correctly from when I watched it some months ago, it seemed to me very much like the two astral travelers in the video were talking about spiritual virtual realities, not about the actual everyday reality of the spiritual world.
In the actual everyday reality of the spiritual world, the people around you are not mere “thought forms” that you are “projecting” around you. They are actual people, complete with spiritual flesh-and-blood bodies. Even the scenery around you is not just a projection of your own thoughts and feelings. It is an environment created by God to reflect the thoughts and feelings of the whole community living in that part of heaven.
In other words, heaven is not some solipsism where each person creates his or her own reality, and everything is just a projection of that person’s own mind. Rather, heaven is a vast community of people all of whom love both God and one another.
Further, heaven is not a creation of the people who live there. It is a creation of God. It is God’s gift to the people who live there, to give them the happiest and most fulfilling life they can possibly have, or imagine. This is an expression of God’s great love for us.
We do not create our own reality. God creates a reality for us that corresponds to our own thoughts and feelings. This happens partially here on earth, and fully in the spiritual world.
That reality includes not only our own thoughts and feelings, but the thoughts and feelings of all the people around us as well. The people around us are real, and our relationships with them are real. Otherwise, what would be the point, or the joy, of life? Without our relationships and friendships, life would be empty and meaningless.
In reality, love and and human relationship never dies. It only becomes stronger and deeper to eternity, for those who choose love of God and the neighbor over love of self and the world.
Hi Lee,
Thank you for the clarification and I remembered watching an OTLE video about representations and I thought of that as well when I looked back and remembered watching this as well. And that’s funny someone else sent you the same video as well!
But it’s really interesting how people can live out their fantasies but yet that doesn’t take away from the realness of our loved ones or the environment we are in. It seems like people pick an either or situation when it’s both true. How like you said we are flesh and blood and how we can still live out our experiences or something in the past but that doesn’t take away from our loved ones being real or anything else for that matter.
Is that why when OBErs or people who have spiritual experiences or talk about the afterlife sometimes say we live in a simulation or holographic projection, like how you explained with Star Treks Holodeck or that it’s solipsism because they are interpreting through it through an earthly materialist perspective whereas Swedenborg spent so much time and had clarity to see that stuff like this isn’t a literal hologram/simulation but a bonus in the spiritual world that God gave us to grow as an individual?
Thank you again Lee for the guidance on these subjects and sorry if I reposted it twice for some reason I’m having trouble with WordPress and it’s making me login and then my post looks on my end like I never posted anything.
Hi Sam,
You’re welcome, as always.
About your question, keep in mind that when people first enter the spiritual world, they don’t yet have their spiritual eyes open, but are in more like a dream state. Dream states are all about our own psyche. There are no other actual people in our dreams. Even if we see someone we know in a dream, such as our mother, she is a projection of our own image of and relationship with our mother in our own mind. It is not our actual mother talking to us from her own mind and will.
Similarly, many people who have OBEs, and even some people who have NDEs, are still living within the world of their own mind. They may or may not be interacting with actual people in the spiritual world. They may very well be interacting with their own mental projections of people, similar to a dream state. It is therefore understandable that some of them will come back from the experience thinking that everything in the spiritual world is just a projection of our own mind, leading to solipsistic ideas such as the ones presented in some of these videos, and to the idea that we “create our own reality.”
Once our spiritual eyes are opened, and we are actually living in the real spiritual world, and not in a spiritual virtual reality or dreamscape that is a projection of our own mind, we are no longer “creating our own reality.” We are living in a real world that is created by God for the benefit of all the people who live there.
Hi Lee,
That makes a lot of sense like usual! And explains why there is so much nonsense out there! And that also reminds me of one of Swedenborg’s dream experiences he had when angels were discussing about selfishness maybe something along those lines and Swedenborg got to see that is how this person came into his dream because the angels conversations filtered through Swedenborg’s mind and translated to that person with a bag of money or gold.
So that makes sense how our true spiritual eyes aren’t open when these experiences are happening.
Would this be considered like that as well this statement as well when it says:
“This should explain some of the Out of Body experiences some of us have, where we encounter incredibly “physical” environments. We may have simply entered a parallel physical universe, or the mind of an actor within that universe.
Anybody who read Robert Monroe’s book “Journeys out of the body” will remember the part where he lived a parallel life going through a divorce and interestingly the technology he described is also slightly different to ours. I had similar experiences, down to a completely parallel existences.”?
I’m pretty sure I already linked this article my apologies but I just wanted to ask you about this quote. This is the link here http://www.multidimensionalman.com/Multidimensional-Man/What_was_before_the_Big_Bang.html for reference.
Thank you kindly Lee
Hi Sam,
Just before the part you quote, the linked article says (and this is the opening statement of the article):
However, this seems to be the opposite of the truth. From Wikipedia -> Multiverse -> Search for evidence:
According to a YouTube video by physicist Sabine Hossenfelder, which I have linked elsewhere, string theory itself has grown weaker and weaker as a theory because scientific observations and experiments have not provided any evidence for the predictions it makes.
This is the danger of religious and spiritual types tying their beliefs to specific scientific theories—especially to the latest bleeding-edge theories that are commonly the sexiest. If the theory turns out to be false, where does that leave the spiritual ideas that are tied to them—such as the idea that OBEs may be visits to parallel universes?
Not that it’s wrong to look for parallels between religion and science. But it’s probably better to stick with the more settled science rather than always trying to connect your spiritual beliefs to the most speculative and contested areas of science, as spiritual guru types commonly do. To me, that tendency smacks of wanting to impress people by sounding “advanced” rather than wanting to seek out and find the truth.
I haven’t read Robert Monroe’s book so I can’t really comment on that. But the idea of living a whole parallel lifetime in a few minutes or hours of ordinary time shows up fairly often in science fiction. The human mind is a very complex thing. It isn’t bounded by ordinary time because it is spiritual, not material. Even in our ordinary waking life we can watch a movie and come away feeling that we have experienced a story that unfolded over thousands of years even though the movie only went for two hours. I have no doubt that the mind can do similar things within virtual worlds that it creates.
Meanwhile, when we are dreaming, the things around us may feel very real and solid. Someone making love in a dream can have all the same physical sensations as if she or he were actually making love physically. That doesn’t require a parallel universe. The mind itself can provide us with that sense of physicality.
Spiritual things are solid and real, not wispy and insubstantial. Even just having our spiritual senses active, whether in the real spiritual world or in a spiritual virtual reality, can feel every bit as real and solid as experiencing things in this world via our physical senses. If the people who have been to the spiritual world are to be believed, it feels much more real and vivid than this physical plane.
Hi Lee,
Thank you for the further explanations of this subject. And what you said it really shows what’s in our hearts (our love) is what drives the mind (our wisdom). And no wonder like you said about common sci-fi tropes or the latest theories that people have these spiritual dreams or spiritual virtual realities because that person may get into sci fi or like reading crazy theories and when they have an OBE no wonder they’re creating or being brought into like minded spiritual groups which like you said just reinforces those experiences as being the truth. When in reality it’s God allowing them to act it out and giving them that experience even though it’s not true.
But all this doesn’t take away how solid and more real spiritual reality is.
And how it’s not an “either or” situation or like above it’s some “quantum” field of a parallel reality or universe.
But with that you said would that be included regarding we are tapping into an “actor within a universe or reality” which is basically discrediting the spiritual reality?
I’m not a sci fi reader or movie watcher so that’s why when I hear these concepts like Star Trek or like above, I’ve never heard them before so I think it’s “new” or “niche” when it’s really not lol.
Thank you again Lee
Hi Sam,
Just as here on earth, in the spiritual world, there is truth and falsity. One way of defining truth is that it is an accurate understanding of how things actually are. Correspondingly, falsity is a faulty and wrong understanding of how things actually are.
Also just as here on earth, in the spiritual world there is reality and fantasy.
Remember, the spiritual world is made up of the very same people who make up the material world. All the same things that exist among human beings here, and that human beings do here, also exist, and are done, by human beings in the spiritual world. It’s exactly the same people, only in a different realm.
This means that just as people here have their everyday waking reality and they also have their fantasies that they play out in their minds or in virtual realities such as video games and virtual reality headsets, so in the spiritual world people have their everyday waking reality, and they have their fantasy worlds that play out in their mind. However, in the spiritual world it is possible to generate much more realistic virtual realities. So much so that people who are in them can easily think that they are real, when in fact they are only fantasy.
People who are engaged in truth can easily distinguish between reality and fantasy. They know and see accurately what real life is like, and they know and see clearly that fantasies are unreal and wouldn’t work in reality. For a this-world example of this, please see:
Charlie Sheen: Man and Myth
In the sitcom Two and a Half Men, Charlie Sheen could be a perpetually drunk womanizer and still continue to have a solid, stable life. In real life, Charlie Sheen was a drinking, drugging womanizer, and it eventually wrecked him enough that he got fired from the highest-paid position on the most popular sitcom on TV.
That’s the difference between reality and fantasy. It is also the difference between truth and falsity. In fantasy, we can do all sorts of things that in real life would have severe consequences. In our fantasies we can do them without suffering those consequences. In reality, actions have consequences that cannot be indefinitely avoided. Sooner or later those consequences will catch up with us.
Two and a Half Men was a fantasy and a falsity. In real life things would not, and could not, work the way they did on the TV show.
Back to the spiritual world, astral travelers and others who go to the spiritual world can be involved in truth, or they can be involved in falsity. They can see reality there, or they can see fantasy. Many people who go to the spiritual world spend their time in fantasy and falsity, not in reality and truth. That’s why there are so many reports of things from the spiritual world that just aren’t true.
Why do some people see falsities and fantasies in the spiritual world instead of seeing reality and truth?
Most likely because they have false ideas in their mind. They carry those false ideas into the spiritual world with them, and see those ideas played out around them in a fantasy or virtual reality in the spiritual world.
For example, someone who believes in reincarnation will enter a spiritual bubble in which reincarnation seems to be real. They will not be able to distinguish this fantasy or virtual reality bubble from actual spiritual reality because they do not have an accurate understanding of the big picture of what the spiritual world is really like, as Swedenborg did. As a result, they will come back to earth reporting that reincarnation is true, and that they saw it with their own eyes happening in the spiritual world.
Similarly, someone who believes that we “create our own reality” will be able to do just that. But it will be a virtual reality, or a false heaven, not the real spiritual world. For an example of this, read the opening sections of Swedenborg’s Marriage Love, where he describes how people who have various (false) ideas about what heaven and heavenly joy are can try out those ideas. You can read it online starting here. The actual story starts in section 2, but section 1 (which I’ve linked to) gives a brief intro to put these stories in perspective.
Some of these fantasies went on for two or three days before the bubble burst. However, for people who are still living on this earth, and who visit the spiritual world only briefly now and then, the fantasy could continue as long as they are still living on this earth. Since they are not living full-time in the spiritual world as we do after death they may never have their spiritual senses fully opened so that they can experience spiritual reality rather than spiritual virtual reality.
After these people die, sooner or later that bubble will burst. The people who believe these things will then have two choices: they can either accept the truth or they continue to cling to the false ideas they have believed.
If their heart is good, they will accept the truth, and will leave behind their belief in reincarnation, in creating our own reality, and so on. This may take some time. People do have up to the equivalent of two or three decades in the spiritual world to go through the process of leaving behind everything that doesn’t match what’s in their heart—including false spiritual ideas sincerely held by people whose hearts are good.
If their heart is self-centered and greedy, they will continue to cling to these false ideas, and will descend into what could be called the New Age hell. This is not to say that all New Agers go to hell. Not at all. But just as there is a Christian hell for faux Chrisitans, so there will be a New Age hell for people who are into the New Age because they believe it will make them super-powerful, super-wealthy gods. There, they can engage in their fantasies. Unfortunately for them, reality will keep intruding its ugly head, bursting their self-centered god/goddess bubble, and exposing them for the miserable excuses for human beings that they really are.
Another way of saying this is that the karma they believe in will keep on coming around and biting them in the butt! 😀
Hi Lee,
Thank you for the further info on things that happen in the spiritual world and how it works and for the Swedenborg passage and additional reads. So when people have these experiences it’s not a computer but a spiritual fantasy that they can eventually choose to move on from and go to actual spiritual communities to be of love and service in a heathy environment that is solid and real and everything else of their matching. The same goes to Hell which makes a lot of sense. There so many people who use religion to rule over others. Not all will go to hell like any other religion but when people use it for gaining power over others and create a following which I see so much online is when it becomes hellish like you said.
I wonder if these spiritual virtual realities apply to aboriginal people like “Mimi spirts” like the Hawaiian cultures or ancient cultures like the Mayan culture which believed in serpent gods and the ufo community love them because they said Egyptian and Mayan and who ever else couldn’t have possibly built their pyramids by their self they were too “un-advanced ”? And their hieroglyphs show “Advanced beings”? But a lot of them cultures believe in animism were everything they see has a spirit? Like the stars, plants, dirt, random objects etc.
Are those cultures current and past just experiencing virtual spiritual worlds and then after fully being in the spiritual world, like you said slug that off and go to a heavenly community?
Thank you very kindly Lee
Hi Sam,
Like the African traditional religion that I talk about in another post you’ve commented on (here), it may very well be that these indigenous peoples were seeing spiritual reality and also spiritual symbolism, but in the context of their own culture. What they saw and experienced is not necessarily virtual reality or fantasy. It might be the spiritual expression of their own spiritual state. Even in the everyday reality of the spiritual world, people do see around them plants, animals, and scenery that correspond to their own inner state of mind and heart, and the state of mind and heart of the community they live in.
Secular scholars who study these ancient cultures commonly pooh-pooh their beliefs and experiences as “superstition.” But it’s just as possible that they had real experiences of the spiritual world, and those experiences included symbolic figures of animals, super-humans, and so on, that reflected their own culture and its spiritual character. Personally, I don’t know enough about these cultures to say much that’s specific about them. But I would not want to rush quickly to dismissing their spiritual experiences because they don’t fit into the norms of our time and culture. And Swedenborg does say that ancient people commonly had open experience of the spiritual world.
Having said that, there were also aspects of these cultures that were definitely not good, such as human sacrifice. So it’s also best not to romanticize those cultures just because they’re not modern Western European cultures. People are people. No matter what culture they come from, there is both good and evil, truth and falsity. Making the opposite error and thinking that everything the people of these ancient cultures did is wonderful and good is, in a backhanded way, insulting and dehumanizing them, as if they didn’t have the same freedom and rationality that Europeans do to choose between good and evil (and sometimes choose the evil) which is one of the hallmarks of true humanity.
Meanwhile, people who are into UFOs, as you say, quickly jump to conclusions that what these people saw were aliens arriving in spaceships. More likely they saw angels arriving in “chariots of fire,” to use the biblical term. And they saw them with their spiritual eyes, not their physical eyes. But because UFO folks tend to think in material terms rather than in spiritual terms, if they see a painting of some conveyance up in the air that has flames shooting out of it, they immediately think, “They were seeing rocket ships coming from an alien planet and landing here!”
Though of course ancient artwork is stylized, perhaps we should consider that when they painted a chariot that had people riding in it and flames coming out the back, that’s actually what they saw, and they were simply illustrating it in their own stylized art form. Again, it’s culturally elitist to think that what they were really seeing was spaceships, but they “translated” that into chariots, because that’s how they understood what they were seeing. No. If they had seen spaceships, they would have been perfectly capable of drawing what they saw, even if it was in their own style. But that’s not what they drew.
Again, I’m not an expert on this. But when I’ve looked at the ancient art that the UFO people say was alien spaceships, they haven’t looked like spaceships to me!
Hi Lee,
That makes a lot of sense as always and what you said is so true. What these secular scholars or “UFO” nuts say really is culturally elitist to think that such “primitive” people couldn’t have possibly been that smart to build and create such things such as art, language, architecture, not to mention a connection to the spiritual realm and knowledge of correspondences. But also romanticize it as if they knew everything or everything that did was right is also wrong.
I remember reading that “Joe Rogan has always been the kind of guy who gets high while watching the History Channel and comes to the conclusion that aliens built the pyramids.” Because it was going around online how a “Doctor in History and Exobiologist expert” he interviewed literally said that ancient people were “dumb as rocks” so aliens had to “intervene” to “speed up humanity’s evolution”.
I’ve notice a lot of conspiracy theories are racist, anti semantic (like David Icke said Jews were behind 5g towers spreading Covid), and dehumanizing. Probably to make the people who spread this info look more superior than others. Plus like you said they come from a materialist perspective on everything than a true spiritual mind.
That’s super insulting like you said and when you have someone like yourself who doesn’t have an agenda or an axe to grind it goes to show how their paintings aren’t “spaceships” or “aliens in spacesuits” or what ever else they come up with. And if they were they would have just painted them outright with their own cultural style.
Thank you again Lee
Hi Sam,
You are most welcome, as always. Just one more thought for now, about this:
Perhaps the earliest human species that emerged over two million years ago were “dumb as rocks” compared to today’s humans. But God is patient. After all, by that time life had been gradually evolving on Earth for at least 3.5 billion years. And it was another 1.87 million years after that before humans apparently began to be spiritually aware, as evidenced by their beginning to bury their dead in ritualistic fashion. The earliest examples of this that we have found so far were about 130,000 years ago.
God apparently did not feel any need to “speed up humanity’s evolution.” Rather, God worked slowly and methodically to bring us to the point at which we were not so “dumb as rocks” that we couldn’t start thinking about God, spirit, and the afterlife.
Nothing happens by magic. Everything must be done step by step. Something as stupendously amazing as a human being, and human culture, requires stupendously amazing processes and time periods to bring about. The more we learn about all the highly unlikely and finely calibrated physical and biological events and processes that had to happen both on the cosmological scale and on the cellular scale for us even to exist, the more incredible it becomes that we exist at all.
Personally, I don’t think it would have been possible without God’s hand behind it. No alien would be smart enough or powerful enough to bring all of these incredibly intricate and unlikely processes together to culminate in us.
Hi Lee,
What you said also reminds me of how when you take God out of the picture people create a new God and aliens seems like a popular escape goat for the materialist and atheist. Plus this reminds me like you said before, starting with material reality to prove God is the wrong direction. There is only one way flowing in and that’s from God you don’t go backwards starting with material reality. So really the whole aliens things wouldn’t work simply for that reason alone. Plus it’s not a race to get to some non existent “finish line” God is infinite therefore there is no “final goal” we just keep growing and experiencing new things forever. Which that’s probably because materialist can’t raise their minds out of temporal reality to the spiritual reality. Hopefully that makes sense lol
Thank you Lee
Hi Sam,
Yes, it makes all kinds of sense! 🙂