From Caterpillar to Butterfly
“Do you believe in reincarnation?”
I’ve been asked this question many times over the years.
Sometimes it’s a litmus test question. The people asking already either believe in reincarnation or they don’t. If my answer agrees with their view, they’ll see me as enlightened. If not, they’ll see me as unenlightened. So it’s always tempting to answer with a light-hearted, paradoxical non-answer of the type a certain uncle of mine loves: “Not this time around!”
But the question keeps coming. People also want to know what the Bible says about reincarnation. And they want to know whether my favorite theologian, Emanuel Swedenborg (1688–1772), says anything about reincarnation. Some are sincerely looking for understanding on this often confusing subject.
For example, here is part of a comment that a reader named Mark left on the article, “If there’s One God, Why All the Different Religions?”
Specifically however, please enlighten those of us who remain confused by reincarnation. As an example, Krishna conciousness teaches an absolutely beautiful and devoted life to God (whom appears in any way he chooses but still only ONE god). The bible seems to teach that we come through this human “life” but once. I understand that this could be once per each human life and I have considered that each human life, even reincarnated, is once. Please provide your take on this. Unless I have misunderstood, according to Krishna teachings, heaven is not the “final” or utmost attainment.
We’ll dig into all of this in a few minutes. But first, for those of you who just want the quick answers so that you can move on:
- I do not believe in reincarnation (though I do think it points to a deeper truth).
- The Bible does not support reincarnation (and it never did).
- Emanuel Swedenborg also does not support reincarnation (but he explains why people think it happens).
There! I’ve said it!
If you still want to learn more, settle in. This is going to take some time. But it will be worth your time if you want a thoughtful, spiritual, non-dogmatic Christian response to the currently popular belief in reincarnation.
There’s more to reincarnation than meets the eye
Before we dig into the specifics, let’s get the general idea in mind.
If understood from a spiritual rather than a materialistic viewpoint, neither the Bible nor the Eastern scriptures teach reincarnation. Instead, they teach spiritual rebirth. And they teach a continual “re-incarnation” of God in an infinite variety of finite (non-God) human beings. Each creation of a new human soul, and the resulting birth of a new human being, is a brand new expression of a unique, never before expressed facet of the infinite reality of God.
In other words, God’s infinite creativity is continually creating brand new expressions in the form of new, eternal human souls that briefly inhabit a material body on earth on their way to an eternal (and very solid and real) life in the spiritual world. Our lifetime here on earth is like our development in the womb before we are born into our true, spiritual and eternal life. Along the way we experience many spiritual rebirths, both during our lifetime here on earth and during our eternal life in the spiritual world.
Reincarnation as popularly believed—souls passing through multiple bodies and lifetimes in the material world—does not actually take place. However, there is a reason under God’s providence that people are allowed to think that it does.
Many people see all the injustice in the world, and they cannot accept that a loving God would allow so much evil and injustice. For people who have difficulty thinking beyond this material world, with its physical and financial rewards and punishments, reincarnation provides a way to think that life is just. And it is better for people to believe in God and spirit, even if their belief is not entirely accurate, than to reject God and spirit altogether because they believe God has created an unjust world.
In other words, a belief in literal, physical reincarnation is an accommodation God makes for people who are focused more on material justice in the physical world than they are on spiritual and eternal justice.
It is similar to some Christian fundamentalists believing that in a future apocalyptic Last Judgment, the world as we know it will be destroyed, God will create a new one, and we will all be reunited with our physical bodies and live in an eternal paradise right here in the physical world.
That’s not going to happen. Those prophecies are about spiritual events. (See “Is the World Coming to an End? What about the Second Coming?”) However, for people who can’t conceive of any solid reality other than material, physical reality, the belief in a literal resurrection of the body allows them to think that there will be a real future life, not just some disembodied, ghostly “spiritual” life.
As a matter of fact, life in the spiritual world is much more solid and real than life here on earth. But that idea is difficult, if not impossible, for many people to grasp.
In the same way, reincarnation does not take place as is popularly believed. But it allows many people who are stuck on physical, material reality to believe that life continues after death, and that there is meaning, purpose, and justice in the way the universe is constructed.
Beyond that, the materialistic idea of physical reincarnation provides an image of a deeper, spiritual truth.
You see, even beliefs and ideas that are fallacious in themselves can serve as stepping stones to a deeper understanding of spiritual reality. When we move beyond the external appearance, we can discover the deeper truth. Eastern scriptures that speak of reincarnation are using material images of life and death to speak about deeper realities of our spiritual rebirth.
That’s also what the Bible means when it speaks about being born again.
Did the Bible ever teach reincarnation?
Let’s dispose of one common rumor right away: the idea that the Bible used to teach reincarnation, but those evil Christian councils changed the text hundreds or thousands of years ago, so that it no longer does.
Hogwash.
There is absolutely no evidence for this.
Now, I have no great love for the so-called Christian councils. Most of them just mucked up Christian doctrine and said nasty things about everyone who disagreed with their particular heresies. But one thing they didn’t do was change the text of the Bible. It wasn’t really possible for them to do that. There were too many manuscripts of the various books of the Bible, going too far back. Any changes they made would have been so obvious that they would have been rejected.
The only thing the councils could do was decide which books would be in the Bible. However, for the books they did include, the text we have is as good as or better than any other text we have from that far back in history. Though a few minor scribal errors made it through, and there were a few sections added to the originals (such as all but the first few words of 1 John 5:7), for the most part we have a fairly reliable text of the entire Bible. And none of the changes that did take place had any effect on what the Bible says about reincarnation.
What does the Bible say about reincarnation?
The word “reincarnation” does not appear in the Bible. However, there are several places in the Bible where the idea of reincarnation comes up.
Let’s be clear about this.
There are many spiritual leaders who claim that the Bible teaches reincarnation. However, the fact that the idea of reincarnation shows up in the Bible does not mean it is true according to the Bible. It only means that in Biblical times there were people who believed in reincarnation. In the few places where it does come up, reincarnation is not affirmed in the Bible. And there are many passages that state clearly that once we die, we go to an eternal afterlife, from which we do not come back.
As we will see, the Bible, especially the Gospels, offers a teaching in place of reincarnation that is much deeper, more spiritual, and in the end, more just and human than reincarnation.
Let’s look at some of the places where the idea of reincarnation is present in the Bible.
Was a man born blind because he sinned in a previous life?
John 9 tells the story of Jesus healing a man born blind, and its aftermath. When Jesus first encountered the man, his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John 9:2). Of course, for the man to have sinned resulting in his being born blind, he would have had to sin in a previous life.
However, Jesus rejected both of the possible explanations that his disciples suggested: “Neither this man nor his parents sinned; he was born blind so that God’s works might be revealed in him” (John 9:3). That is a fascinating reply, with a lot of meaning, as explored in the rest of the chapter. But for our purposes at the moment, the point is that Jesus rejected the idea that sins in a supposed previous life were the reason for this man’s blindness from birth. And since the doctrine of reincarnation generally holds that sins in past lives are the reason we suffer in our present life, by extension Jesus rejected the whole idea of reincarnation.
Was Jesus a reincarnation of John the Baptist or one of the prophets?
In Matthew 16:13–20, Jesus asked his disciples who people were saying that he is. They responded, “Some say John the Baptist, but others Elijah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” Jesus was not satisfied with this answer. He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Then Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” This answer Jesus heartily approved of. Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.” He goes on to say that he will build his church on the “rock” of this truth (not on Peter himself, as the Catholic Church teaches).
Once again, when his disciples present Jesus with popular speculations that he was a reincarnation of John the Baptist (impossible, since John the Baptist and Jesus lived at the same time) or one of the ancient prophets, Jesus did not accept that idea. Instead, he accepted the idea that he is the Christ (the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word “Messiah,” meaning “the anointed one”), and the Son of God.
Incidentally, the Bible also does not say that Jesus was a reincarnation of King David. Like Elijah as a prophet (see below), in the Hebrew scriptures David became a figure representing greatness as a king. In associating Jesus with David, the Bible does not mean that Jesus was a reincarnation of David. It means that he took over from David in spirit as the greatest King of all time.
Was John the Baptist a reincarnation of the prophet Elijah?
There was also a lot of speculation that John the Baptist was a reincarnation of the ancient prophet Elijah. This came about because of a prophecy in the Old Testament:
Behold, I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of parents to their children and the hearts of children to their parents, so that I will not come and strike the land with a curse. (Malachi 4:5–6)
And in fact, in the Gospels, Jesus does identify John the Baptist as Elijah who was to come (see Matthew 11:13–14, 17:10–13). This has been seized upon by those who believe in reincarnation to say that Jesus did, indeed, teach reincarnation. But this idea cannot withstand scrutiny. Neither the prophecy in Malachi nor Jesus’ words identifying John the Baptist with Elijah were meant to be taken literally.
What does this prophecy mean, then? And how was it fulfilled by John?
Essentially, it means that John was to be a great prophet like Elijah, preparing the way for the coming of the Lord. In the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament), Elijah had come to be a representative figure of prophets, and of prophecy in general. This is why in the Gospel of Luke, an angel of the Lord told John’s father Zechariah that his yet unborn son would go before the Lord “with the spirit and power of Elijah” (Luke 1:17, emphasis added). John was not to literally be Elijah, but to “wear the mantle of Elijah” (in Biblical terms) as a great and powerful prophet—the last of the Biblical prophets, leading up to Jesus himself.
We can be assured that John was not literally a reincarnation of Elijah by a later incident recorded in the Gospels. After John’s death, at the time of Jesus’ transfiguration, Jesus’ closest disciples, Peter, James, and John, saw Moses and Elijah with Jesus (Matthew 17:1–13; Mark 9:2–13; Luke 9:28–36). Now, if Elijah had been reincarnated as John the Baptist, he would no longer be Elijah, but John. Yet after John’s death, both Elijah and Moses were still living in the spiritual world as themselves. Many centuries after they had lived and breathed on earth, they had not been reincarnated and become someone else.
In short, according to the Bible story, Elijah could not possibly have been reincarnated as John the Baptist. Elijah was still living in the spiritual world, very much himself, after John the Baptist had already lived and died.
For some other Bible stories in which well-known figures are seen or mentioned as alive and themselves (not some other, reincarnated being) in the spiritual world years or even centuries after their deaths, see 1 Samuel 28:3–25; Matthew 22:31–32; Luke 16:19–31.
The Bible denies reincarnation, and affirms an eternal afterlife
The stories about the man born blind, the question of who Jesus was, and John the Baptist fulfilling the prophecy of Elijah’s return are sometimes pointed to by reincarnation supporters to argue that the Bible teaches reincarnation. But in fact they show just the opposite. Wherever the idea of reincarnation is brought up in the Bible, it is either directly denied or the story itself makes that interpretation impossible.
Meanwhile, there are many passages in the Bible stating either directly or through imagery that once we die, we move on to an eternal state from which we do not return. Here are just a few of them:
As the cloud fades and vanishes, so those who go down to Sheol [the grave or the underworld] do not come up; they return no more to their houses, nor do their places know them anymore. (Job 7:9–10)
“But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.” (2 Samuel 12:23)
“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)
And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into hell, where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched. (Mark 9:47–48)
And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment . . . (Hebrews 9:27)
Yes, there are shadows of reincarnation in the Bible. But the whole story of the Bible is based on the idea that we humans have but one life on earth, and we then we move on to our eternal reward or punishment, never to return.
There is another story in the Bible that relates to reincarnation: Jesus’ nighttime conversation with Nicodemus in John 3:1–21. That story offers the key to understanding the real, deeper meaning behind the popular misconception of individual reincarnation. But before we get to it, let’s look at how people came to believe in reincarnation.
What does Emanuel Swedenborg say about reincarnation?
Long before there was widespread knowledge of near-death experiences, and all of the information and experience about the afterlife from them, there was Emanuel Swedenborg (1688–1772).
As far as I know, no one else in human history has ever even claimed to have the length, depth, and clarity of experience in the spiritual world that Swedenborg did. By his account, for the last twenty-seven years of his life he was able to be fully conscious in the spiritual world while still living in the material world. He didn’t just hear voices like a spirit medium. He lived and moved among angels and spirits as if he were one of them from his mid 50s until the time of his death at age 84.
During those years, he traveled extensively throughout heaven, hell, and the intermediate “world of spirits” (as he called it), fully acclimating himself to the realm that we all pass into after we die. His most popular book, Heaven and Hell offers a verbal map and guided tour of the spiritual world.
While thousands of people have had a brief glimpse of the spiritual world during near-death experiences, and have come back to tell us about it, Swedenborg had several decades to fully experience the other world, and unlock its secrets. From that extensive experience, he made his few brief but illuminating statements about reincarnation.
In most of those statements, he quickly dismisses reincarnation as a mere fantasy. However, in Heaven and Hell #256 he offers more substance about how people came to believe in reincarnation:
No angel or spirit is allowed to talk with one of us from the angel’s or spirit’s own memory, only from that of the individual in question. Angels and spirits actually have memory just as we do. If a spirit were to talk with us from his or her own memory, then it would seem to us entirely as though the thoughts were our own, when they would really belong to the spirit. It is like remembering something that we have never seen or heard. I have been granted knowledge of the truth of this by experience.
This is why some of the ancients were of the opinion that after some thousands of years they would return to their former life and all its deeds, and that they had in fact returned. They gathered this from the fact that sometimes a kind of memory would come up of things that they had never seen or heard. This happened because spirits had flowed from their own memory into the images of these people’s thoughts.
What is Swedenborg saying here?
Short version: when people “experience past lives,” they are indeed experiencing a past life. But it’s not their own. It is the life of someone else who had previously lived and died here on earth, and is now living in the spiritual world.
Spiritual IT
You see, in the spiritual world, what we call “information technology” (IT) is far more advanced than it is here on earth. Here, we require complex electronics to store and transfer data. Large memory banks are required to store databases full of information. Transferring all that information over land lines or via satellite can take a considerable amount of time.
In the spiritual world, information storage is built right into the “operating system.” And transmission, even of massive amounts of data, is almost instantaneous.
For example, even after we die, the memory of every experience we have ever had from pre-birth to death is stored away forever. This is not just a general memory of the high points. It includes every single experience in full detail: sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch, together with all of the thoughts, feelings, impressions, desires, and reactions associated with it. The record of our life is so detailed that it is possible for us to re-experience any event or time period in our life so fully that it feels as if we were actually there.
That’s a vast amount of information! Yet it is all stored effortlessly and without error in the spiritual “data banks” of our minds, and in the general “data centers” of the spiritual world.
Not only that, but it is possible for that vast amount of information to be transferred almost instantly from mind to mind. In the spiritual world, it is not only possible for us to re-experience events in our own lives from the records of it in our spiritual memory, but for the angels and spirits around us to share in that experience.
For example, Swedenborg describes how angels are able to draw out of the memories of criminals who have died the exact circumstances of their crimes, and display every single detail of each crime, one after another from beginning to end, until they cannot possibly deny what they have done. See Heaven and Hell #462b (scroll down to 462b).
“Experiencing past lives”
Of course, people in the spiritual world don’t walk around all day dumping the contents of their earthly memories into other people’s minds. Usually, once we move on to heaven (or hell), the memory of our earthly life fades away as we build new and much more vivid memories of our new life in the spiritual world.
However, those memories do still exist. And under the right circumstances, it is a simple matter to transfer the entire memory of one person’s life into another person’s mind.
This is the most basic explanation of what is actually happening when people experience “past life regression,” and “remember past lives.”
We have spirits around us all the time, even while we are still living in the material world. They are so tied in with our thinking and feeling that if we were cut off from the spiritual “atmosphere” created by the spirits who surround us in the spiritual world, we would not be able to think or feel anything at all.
The spirits who are with us normally have access only to our minds and memories, not theirs, while they are with us. This is to prevent them from confusing us by transferring into our minds their own memories or the memories of other spirits that they have access to. Instead, they draw out things from our own thoughts and feelings, resulting in our recollecting things we’ve experienced, coming up with new ideas and theories, and evaluating our ideas and beliefs, our loves and feelings, and the meaning of our lives.
Sometimes, though—especially when it is desired by those on both sides of the sensory “veil” that separates the material and spiritual worlds—memories of a departed spirit’s life are transferred into the minds of people who are still living on earth. This can cause feelings of déjà vu. Or, when a more complete set of memories is transferred, it can cause us to “remember” whole life experiences of someone who lived in the past.
This is not necessarily the past life of the actual spirits who are around us. Once a spirit gets access to another spirit’s memories, those, too, can easily be transferred to the mind of someone still living on earth.
It is quite common for people who believe they’ve experienced past lives to think that in a past life they were someone famous from history. In the spiritual world, famous people are the subject of just as much fascination and investigation as they are here on earth. But in the spiritual world, it is possible to get access to “inside information” from memory records that are not available here on earth. Those memories can then be transferred to someone who is still alive on earth, causing the phenomenon of famous people being more likely to have been “reincarnated” than unknown ones. Wouldn’t you rather have been one of the elite few such as Plato or Hypatia, and not just one of the anonymous masses of slaves, serfs, and poor laborers who toiled away for decades and then died in obscurity? Yet statistically, the chances that you were someone famous in a past life are almost nil.
Such memory transfers are not the only mechanism by which people have experiences that convince them that they’ve been reincarnated from previous lives on earth. But they are the explanation for most of the “experiences of past lives” that believers in reincarnation report.
This doesn’t necessarily mean those experiences are evil or demonic, as claimed by many conservative religious opponents of reincarnation. Everything happens under God’s providence. For some people, the belief that they have been here before, and will be here again, gives great meaning to their lives. And the angels and spirits who are with us lead and inspire us according to our own beliefs, whether or not those beliefs are actually true.
This is all part of God’s protection of our freedom to believe and live as we choose. However, this is also one of the reasons why contact with angels and spirits is not a good source of genuine spiritual truth. (See the article, “What about Spiritualism? Is it a Good Idea to Contact Spirits?”)
What’s wrong with reincarnation?
So why shouldn’t people believe in reincarnation?
Practically speaking, it may not matter all that much whether people do or don’t believe in reincarnation. It either happens or it doesn’t, regardless of what we happen to believe. And as long as we love and serve God by loving and serving our fellow human beings (see Matthew 25:31–46 and Romans 2:5–16), it’s not so critical that we have correct beliefs rather than faulty ones.
The fact is, people can believe all sorts of things, including reincarnation, and still be good and loving people who are heading to heaven, not hell. For example, I have no trouble accepting the description of Krishna consciousness as teaching “an absolutely beautiful and devoted life to God.” God has spoken divine truth to people of all races and cultures. Each one hears it in its own unique way. (See “If there’s One God, Why All the Different Religions?”)
If you, dear reader, still want to believe in reincarnation after reading this, I have no problem with that. I won’t argue with you or try to convince you that you are wrong.
But since I’ve been asked the question so many times, I’ll tell you why for me, reincarnation is not an acceptable belief.
Reincarnation robs us of our humanity
It all has to do with our humanity.
And that has to do with our freedom to choose our own life and our own destiny.
What I personally find so troubling about the systems of belief that include reincarnation is precisely what those who do believe in them find so attractive and comforting.
In every form of reincarnation that I’ve encountered so far, there is no eternal hell.
Sooner or later, every soul ends out either re-merged with the Divine or in a state of blissful nirvana that is the Eastern equivalent of the Western heaven.
What’s so bad about that? Isn’t it good that everyone would end out in the highest attainable state?
In a word: No.
Theoretically, God could have created the universe so that it contained no eternal evil, or even so that it contained no evil at all. But the cost of doing so would have been the absence of any created beings who were truly human. If real, eternal evil did not exist in the universe, there could be no beings in the universe (other than God) capable of real, human relationships of love and mutual understanding with God and with one another.
You see, for love to be real human love, it must be freely chosen. God could have created us pre-programmed to love God and love our fellow human beings. But it would have had exactly as much meaning as programming a computer to print “I love you” on the screen. The computer doesn’t actually love you. It’s just mindlessly displaying what it is programmed to display.
What makes us human is the freedom to choose who and what we will love, and the rationality to think for ourselves and make our own decisions about what to believe. Without these capabilities at the core of our being, we would be no more human than a rock or a tree.
Further, if we are to be truly free, we must be able to choose what we will believe, what we will love, and how we will live permanently, not just temporarily.
That’s the problem with the doctrine of reincarnation. Eventually, no matter what choices we make, we will all end out in the same place: either as part of the Divine or in the blissful state of nirvana. In fact, under the doctrine of reincarnation, we will be forced to undergo endless lifetimes until we make the choices, and reach the enlightenment, that we are supposed to make. Choosing anything other than pure love and enlightenment will only send us back for another lifetime . . . and another . . . and another, until we get it “right.” Only one choice is acceptable: the choice for divinity and enlightenment.
What this really means is that under the doctrine of reincarnation, we are not human at all. We are like rats in a maze, forced to keep running the circles of continual reincarnations until our behavior, our thoughts, and our loves conform to the way the designer of the maze wants us to think, feel, and act. Only then are we released from the wheel of reincarnation.
“Karma” as taught in the doctrine of reincarnation is not only cause and effect—which in itself is a perfectly true and reasonable idea. It is also a deterministic and behavioristic training mechanism that gradually and inexorably forces all souls to make the same “choice” (which is really a non-choice), and end out in the same place.
Eternal heaven + eternal hell = true humanity
People who believe in reincarnation often say that it’s not fair to have just one lifetime to make an eternal choice between good and evil.
However, if we look at it objectively, it really doesn’t matter whether our choice is made in seventy seconds, seventy years, or seventy centuries. There is no ratio between eternity and any finite time period. Once a period of seventy billion years is over, it will still be like nothing compared to eternity. And if every choice we make except the choice to re-merge with the Divine or enter a blissful nirvana is only temporary, then those “choices” are not real, no matter how long they take to make. They are only a temporary illusion.
Only what is eternal is truly real.
This means that for our humanity to be real, we must be able to make choices that last forever.
And for our freedom of choice to be real, we must be free to choose not to do what God designed us to do. So we must be free to choose not to love God and not to love our fellow human beings. We must be free to reject the light of truth that God offers us, and cling to our own particular darkness and falsity.
This is why God allows (not creates) evil and falsity, and allows (not creates) an eternal hell. Without it, none of our choices are real. Without it, we are not humans, but rats in a maze or pre-programmed robots who merely do what we are trained or programmed to do.
The fact that we can choose not to go to heaven, but choose instead to go to hell forever, means that our choices are real, what we choose really matters, and we are truly human. As free and rational human beings, we can choose our own life and determine our own eternal fate.
Hell is a choice
Yes, the existence of an eternal hell is a choice. And it is our choice.
Why would anyone ever choose to live in the eternal punishment and torture of hell?
It helps to understand that although there certainly are painful and devastating punishments in hell, that’s not the primary purpose of hell. In fact, the primary purpose of hell is to provide a place where people who choose hatred over love, greed over generosity, domination over cooperation, and falsity over truth can experience as much of their particular pleasure as possible given the self-limiting and self-punishing character of evil and falsity.
Hell has many other purposes as well, such as protecting angels and good spirits from the destructive influence of evil spirits and providing a balance between good and evil so that people on earth can remain in spiritual freedom. (For more on why there is a hell and what it is really like, see the article, “Is There Really a Hell? What is it Like?”)
In short, the only way we can be truly human is if we have a choice between good and evil . . . and that choice is permanent. Our life on earth is our opportunity to make that choice. God could have made our life last a single day, which is the life span of some insects, or it could have lasted fourteen billion years, which is the estimated age of the universe so far. It really doesn’t matter. Seventy to one hundred years is as good a number as any.
What does matter is that God doesn’t force us to do it God’s way. As human beings, God offers us the choice between good and evil, lets us make that choice for ourselves, and then respects the choice we have made.
A conversation with some inhabitants of hell
Believe it or not, the people who go to hell choose to be there. As terrible and disgusting as their life may seem to us, they wouldn’t have it any other way. Swedenborg was once present for a conversation in the spiritual world in which a spirit newly arrived from earth, together with some angel guides, encountered some evil spirits from hell. Here’s what happened:
The ground suddenly yawned wide at some distance from them. Up through the chasm came three devils, who were visibly lit up by the delight that comes from what they love. The angels who were accompanying the newly arrived spirit perceived that it was not by coincidence that the three devils had come up just then. The angels called out to the devils, “Don’t come any closer, but from where you are, tell us something about what delights you.”
“It is important to know,” they replied, “that all people, whether labeled good or evil, have their own delight. The so-called good people have theirs and the so-called evil people have theirs.”
“What do you take delight in?” the angels asked.
“What is delightful to us,” they replied, “is whoring, taking revenge, cheating, and speaking blasphemy.”
“What are those delights like for you, exactly?” the angels asked.
The devils replied that their delights were sensed by others as resembling the stench of excrement, the reek of dead bodies, and the smell of stagnant urine.
“Are those things actually delightful to you?” the angels asked.
“Very much so,” the devils replied.
“Then you are like the filthy little creatures that live in those substances,” said the angels.
“If we are, we are,” the devils said, “but those things give our noses intense pleasure.”
“Do you have anything further to add?” the angels asked.
“Yes,” they replied. “Everyone is allowed to have her or his delight, even if it is of the ‘most unclean’ kind, as others call it, provided she or he does not attack good spirits and angels; but because our delight makes it absolutely impossible to resist attacking them, we are thrown into workhouses where we suffer many hard things. Being restrained and withdrawn from our delights causes the so-called torment of hell, which is profound inner pain.”
“Why do you attack people who are good?” the angels asked.
“We can’t help it,” the devils said. “A kind of rage comes over us every time we see any angel and sense the Lord’s divine sphere around that angel.”
“Then you are also like animals,” we said.
Soon afterward, when they noticed the newly arrived spirit with the angels, a diabolical rage came over them, which looked like a burning fire of hate. Therefore to prevent their doing any harm, they were thrown back into hell. (True Christianity #570:7)
During this brief time of withdrawal from their usual life in hell, these evil spirits were quite rational. They had a clear understanding of their own life and pleasures. And they assured their listeners that although others may find their pleasures revolting, to them they are intensely pleasurable.
Outside of hell, they could not indulge those pleasures. So although their pleasures are inextricably linked with pain, they choose to be in hell, where at least some of the time they can enjoy the types of pleasures they have chosen, and no one can force them to be someone they do not want to be. In other places, Swedenborg describes evil spirits jeering at those who feel love and kindness for others, and rejecting such feelings as idiotic and unreal.
As inhuman as this may seem, having the choice to live this way is part of what it means to be human. It means having the freedom to choose what sort of person we want to be, even if that involves rejecting the life for which God designed us.
In the doctrine of reincarnation, we are not given that freedom—which means that ultimately, we are not really human.
Why does reincarnation appear in so many ancient writings?
Why, then, do so many scriptures—especially Eastern scriptures—talk about reincarnation?
That’s a very good question, and it deserves an answer.
First, the idea of reincarnation has been ingrained in many cultures for thousands of years. As we’ve already seen, it shows up in the Bible. It also shows up in the writings of the ancient Greek philosopher Plato. And of course, it shows up in many ancient Eastern scriptures. It is present in the ancient writings of many cultures.
However, the purpose of scriptures is not really to set us right intellectually. It is to lead us toward a life of loving God and our fellow human beings (see Matthew 22:34–40). In order to accomplish this, the various scriptures of humankind commonly accept beliefs and practices already ingrained in the cultures in which the scriptures are written, and use them to lead the people of those cultures toward more kind and loving ways of life.
The simplest answer to the question of why reincarnation appears in many ancient writings is that the people of those cultures already believed in reincarnation. Those sacred writings simply used that belief to inculcate in them a life of caring and concern for their fellow human beings.
In the case of reincarnation, the basic message conveyed by the ancient Eastern scriptures is this:
If you engage in evil practices such as lying, stealing, adultery, fraud, and so on, you will be punished for it in a future life. For example, if you are wealthy but corrupt and oppressive in this life, in your next life you will experience the same poverty and oppression that you now inflict on others. On the other hand, if you are poor and lowborn, but you live a kind and virtuous life, in your next life you will be rewarded by being born into a privileged, well-to-do family, and enjoying the finer pleasures of life.
This is just an example of how the already existing belief in reincarnation is used in ancient Eastern scriptures to encourage people to choose love and kindness over greed and selfishness. It doesn’t matter very much whether the belief in reincarnation is true or false. What matters is that the people who believe in it see reincarnation as a reason to live good lives rather than evil ones.
What is the deeper meaning of reincarnation?
But there is a more profound reason reincarnation appears in many of the great scriptures of humankind.
Reincarnation in itself is a rather materialistic and physical-minded belief. Like the doctrine of bodily resurrection held to by many conservative Christians, the doctrine of reincarnation is well-adapted to the minds of people who are focused on material rewards and punishments.
However, it also plants the seeds of a deeper understanding of the meaning of life, death, and rebirth. That’s because if we look deeper, the real meaning of reincarnation is not physical rebirth, but spiritual rebirth. It points to the same spiritual reality that the Christian Gospels express through their teachings about being “born again.”
Let’s go back to the Bible, and read part of Jesus’ nighttime conversation with Nicodemus:
Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. He came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God.”
Jesus answered him, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born again.”
Nicodemus said to him, “How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and spirit. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the spirit is spirit. Do not be astonished that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the spirit.” (John 3:1–8)
Here Jesus makes it clear that the rebirth he is talking about is not re-entering the womb and being born again physically, as in the doctrine of reincarnation. Instead, the rebirth he is talking about is being “born of the spirit.”
In plain words, what Jesus is talking about is becoming new people in our minds and hearts. In 2 Corinthians 5:17, the apostle Paul is referring to the same thing when he speaks of our becoming “new creations” in Christ. In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna means the same thing when he tells his student, “Arjuna, both you and I were born many times in the past. You do not remember those births, but I remember them all.”
In each case, the scriptures are not talking about physical rebirth, but spiritual rebirth.
In accordance with Krishna’s words, this takes place many times in the course of our lives. Each time we turn over a new leaf in any of our habitual thoughts, feelings, or actions, we are being born again. We can easily forget about these spiritual rebirths, just as Arjuna did. But if we look back on our lives and reflect on the changes we have been through, we can identify many of the inner rebirths we have experienced from our earliest childhood right up to the present.
For more on this deeper meaning of being born again, see:
- What does Jesus Mean when He Says we Must be Born Again?
- Heaven, Regeneration, and the Meaning of Life on Earth
This is not to deny that many Eastern scriptures and mystical writings do teach a literal, bodily reincarnation. However, that belief is present in those scriptures because it was already a part of the popularly accepted belief system of the people to whom they were addressed.
Even though physical reincarnation does not actually happen, and is in itself a false belief, under God’s providence it was allowed to appear in various ancient scriptures and philosophies because it points toward the deeper truth of spiritual rebirth.
For those whose minds are focused on physical punishments and rewards, reincarnation provides something to hold onto as a reason to live a good and virtuous life. But for those whose minds are able to move beyond material things to spiritual realities, behind the appearance of bodily reincarnation is the deeper reality of the ongoing cycle of rebirth and renewal of our heart, mind, and life. The longer we continue on this cycle of spiritual rebirths, the higher we go on our journey toward God and heaven.
Rebirth does not stop at death
One of the attractive features of reincarnation is that it provides a way for us to continue growing and developing spiritually even after we die. If we don’t get it right in this life, or we don’t attain the level of personal and spiritual growth we are capable of, we will be given another lifetime in which to continue our spiritual journey.
To many people, this looks like a major advantage over beliefs such as those in Christianity, in which we have only one life on earth, and then we go on to our final home in heaven. If we see heaven as “the final or utmost attainment,” then the afterlife looks static, and even stagnant. Who wants to sit on clouds to eternity, playing harps and praising God all day? We humans want to live and learn and grow and experience new things!
So let me ask you a question: When, after many months in your mother’s womb, you were born into the world, did your physical growth stop there? Certainly you went through many amazing transformations while you were in the womb. But after you were born, you continued right on growing to adulthood. And even once you reached adulthood, you did not stop growing intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually. Each new day brings new things to learn, new things to do, new ways to grow. Even here on earth, the day we stop learning and growing is the day we start dying.
Don’t you think this would be even truer when we are “born” from this material world into the spiritual world through the process known as death? Does our intellectual, emotional, and spiritual growth stop just because we have moved from one world to another?
According to Swedenborg, it does not. In fact, he describes a heaven in which the angels are continually learning and growing to eternity! For example, in Secrets of Heaven #4803, he writes:
It is worth mentioning something completely unknown in the world: Good spirits and angels are continually changing and developing as human beings. As this happens, they move into more and more central locations in the areas where they live, and they move up to higher and more responsible jobs. You see, heaven is a place of constant purification—and as the saying goes, of “new creation” [see 2 Corinthians 5:17]. Here’s how it is there: No angel can ever achieve absolute perfection—not to all eternity. Only the Lord is perfect, and all perfection is in and from the Lord.
Just because we die and go to heaven, that doesn’t mean we stop learning and growing. In fact, because we are then in a spiritual world, without the physical limitations of the material world, we have far greater opportunities for growth than we do here on earth!
Consider Nicodemus’s question to Jesus: Now that you’ve grown up, would you even want to go back into the womb? As beautiful and comfortable a place as it is, when we are in utero we are confined to a small, dark space—and our possibilities for growth are very limited. There comes a time when we must leave the womb. If we don’t, there will be no more room for growth, and both we and our mother will die.
In the same way, there comes a time when we have done all the growing we can do in the rather dark and restrictive “womb” of the material world. Not only Swedenborg, but practically everyone who has ever had a brief glimpse of the spiritual world through a vision or a near-death experience describes it as incredibly more real and alive than the material world, and as positively vibrating with love, light, and activity. In that greatly enhanced environment, our ability to learn and grow intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually vastly surpasses what is possible for us here.
If that is so, what would be the purpose of coming back to earth?
It would make no more sense than returning to the womb after we have already been born.
There is absolutely no need for us to return to earth once we have completed the initial process of development as human beings that the material world is designed to provide for us. Any return to the material world would not be a step forward in our spiritual evolution, but a huge step backward.
Reincarnation is unnecessary
There is a very good reason that the Bible does not teach reincarnation.
There is a very good reason that Swedenborg, who is the one human being in all of history who has had the most extensive first-hand experience in the spiritual world, says that reincarnation simply doesn’t happen.
Reincarnation is unnecessary.
Believing in reincarnation isn’t the worst thing in the world. Yes, the popular Hindu belief in reincarnation did serve as a justification for the brutal caste system in India for many centuries. But a belief in reincarnation also helps many people to feel that there is ultimate justice in the universe, and that it is worth avoiding evil actions and doing what is good and right in their own lives.
However, a belief in reincarnation becomes unnecessary when we realize that:
- Heaven and hell are a choice.
- The ability to make that eternal choice is what makes us human.
- Whatever choice we make, we can pursue and experience our own pleasures.
- This is true even if other people think our choice of pleasures is wrong and disgusting.
- The material world is an environment in which we are prepared for the spiritual world.
- If we choose heaven, we can continue to learn and grow to eternity.
- Our ability to learn and grow mentally, emotionally, and spiritually is vastly greater in heaven than it is on earth.
When we realize and understand these things, then we will understand what Nicodemus realized: that once we have grown old, we cannot possibly return into the womb and be born again physically. We have already done that, and we don’t need to do it again. Instead, we are born from the womb of the material world into the wide open vistas of the spiritual world.
There, we will continue to learn and grow and face new challenges every day to eternity. Life will never get old, because we will be continually renewed and reborn in our heart, mind, and life.
For further reading:
- Who Are the Angels and How Do They Live?
- Is There Really a Hell? What is it Like?
- Can Gang Members Go to Heaven? (Is Life Fair?)
- If God is Love, Why all the Pain and Suffering?
- What about Spiritualism? Is it a Good Idea to Contact Spirits?
- What Happens To Us When We Die?
- What does Jesus Mean when He Says we Must be Born Again?
- Heaven, Regeneration, and the Meaning of Life on Earth
Share this:
Lee Woofenden is an ordained minister, writer, editor, translator, and teacher. He enjoys taking spiritual insights from the Bible and the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg and putting them into plain English as guides for everyday life.
Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life 
Hi Lee, thanks for your taking on another difficult subject.
Concerning your remark ‘reincarnation is not necessary’ I have this question: perhaps I do not understand this rightly, but aren’t boddhisattva’s people who have reached a spiritual state transcending normal humanity, such that they stay around (by means of reincarnation) not because this would be necessary, but out of compassion for others, to help them realize their spiritual nature?
Also I have read that in certain traditional African belief systems reincarnation is not considered a normal route for everyone, but those with great spiritual power only can choose to return after dying, not to lead a better life, but just to be among the living again, and I suppose also to lead them spiritually.
This is quite another understanding of reincarnation than the one usually thought of (in the West) as a new chance to improve your spiritual chances.
Hi Angela,
Thanks for your comment. Even an article of this length could not cover every aspect of reincarnation. You are quite right that in the doctrine of reincarnation there are other reasons for returning besides the playing out of karma. The ideal of the bodhisattva does raise bodily reincarnation to a higher level than mere cause-and-effect and behaviorism.
However, bodily reincarnation is still unnecessary for the concept of the bodhisattva to have meaning.
As I understand the root meaning of “bodhisattva,” it refers to “an enlightened being.” In Buddhist thought, as compared to classical Hindu thought, it is possible for any human being to achieve enlightenment in one lifetime–the current one–rather than having to go through many future lifetimes. Christianity takes this one step further in saying that for those who seek it, not even past lives are necessary; it is possible to achieve enlightenment, and even become a great world teacher, within a single lifetime. This is how I would interpret all past bodhisattvas, or great world teachers.
Practically speaking, most people do not aspire to becoming great world teachers. Yet every person has unique worth in the universal body of humanity. If nothing else, for every great teacher there must be many great listeners!
Essentially, Christianity applies Occam’s Razor to the bodhisattva concept, cutting out all unnecessary elements, such as unremembered past lives, and making it attainable in a single lifetime for those who seek it.
Of course, none of us is really self-contained within our own lifetime. As the saying goes, “We are standing on the shoulders of giants.” The enlightenment of humankind is cumulative. A person of the present generation can learn and benefit from the progress toward enlightenment of all past spiritual teachers. So even though in my view souls are not reincarnated in new bodies, in a sense, enlightenment and truth are continually “reincarnated” as newly born and spiritually growing human beings are “seeded” with the truth and enlightenment achieved through the spiritual labors of previous generations.
Hello Lee, great post. Reincarnation is a complicated subject as it touches on several spiritual matters. I have always found a “shared group memory” or the “collective unconscious” as Jung would term it the most plausible. The way I look at it, it is not exactly true, but not exactly false either. Each human personality is connected to the spiritual world, and each person’s psychological makeup is not just genetic but also determined/guided by our connections to the spiritual world. When we learn, the angels/spirits associated with our material mind learn as well. In addition to the shared memory explanation from Swedenborg – I remember reading that as a confirmation of some theories I had from Jung – I found this interesting passage where Swedenborg discusses the Jewish laws of not touching a dead body. The spiritual explanation of it is interesting. Swedenborg says that at times in order to progress, spirits “drop down” back to a natural state to grow out of it. And to “drop down” to a natural state would mean sharing the experience with someone living. By that I mean all of our thoughts have a spiritual origin, it is our choice whether we act on them or not. I discussed this a bit at http://dream-prophecy.blogspot.com/2013/10/christianity-reincarnation-and-emanuel.html
So what it means, is that yes, there is a cycle that we have to break through and reach a higher level. So those New Age and eastern teachings are not false, they are true – but I would say they are an “appearance” of truth. And yet if we say we only live once and that’s it, thats not the complete truth either, but closer to it. When one recognizes that, it is all still completely compatible with the scientific biological fact that when born, we are all unique living beings. We are here to fill in a unique piece of God’s jigsaw puzzle. Which He never seems to finish.
I guess not the answer most people want to hear, they will think white or black on this, but we have here an answer that’s a bit of a shade of grey.
Hi Doug,
Thanks for your comment, and for the link to your article. It does bring out some additional points that I didn’t attempt to cover in this article. This subject could very easily be expanded into an entire book!
In particular, I didn’t delve much farther into the matter of contact with angels and spirits, partly because I’d already written about it in one of the linked articles, and partly because I do think the memory transference phenomenon is the primary source of people’s belief in reincarnation.
However, in addition to that, there are the experiences of conversations with spirits in which spirits affirm the reality of reincarnation. Most of the time they’re simply affirming whatever the person already believes. Since they are inhabiting the person’s memory during the encounter, they believe whatever the person believes.
However, other times the spirits themselves may believe it, perhaps due to the type of experiences you describe in your article. As I point out in the linked article about contacting spirits, a common fallacy is that spirits must know the truth just because they are spirits. Not so, according to Swedenborg. People continue to believe ideas they have adopted and confirmed even after they die, even if those beliefs are false. And just as here, spirits who believed in reincarnation while the were living on earth will take various experiences they have in the spiritual world, such as inhabiting the mind and memory of someone who is still living on earth, and interpret it as supporting reincarnation.
Now . . . I like to think that I think both in black and white and in gray, not to mention in full color! 🙂
When it comes to black and white, I do think each of us is completely and eternally unique in having a soul that occupies a unique “point” in spiritual space. No other soul occupies that point. And that point expresses some unique, differentiated aspect of the infinity of God. It can inhabit only one body as its own body. In fact, according to Swedenborg, our soul is the architect of our body, and builds our particular body to fully and uniquely express the soul.
When it comes to shades of gray and technicolor, each of us also has a sphere of influence that flows out from the “point” that is our soul, and flows into and through others. So in that sense, we do interpenetrate one another, flow into one another, and share the same areas of spiritual space, which can also be thought of as thoughts, feelings, memories, ideas, beliefs, and so on.
I don’t have a problem thinking of reincarnation as an “appearance of truth” as long as we don’t think that the appearance is an actual reality. In other words, souls simply do not pass from one body to another, taking on new bodies sequentially like a string of pearls. That doesn’t happen. But we are continually reborn spiritually. And our loves, ideas, feelings, beliefs, and so on do form a “string of pearls” that starts with God and flows down through many angels and spirits on their way to flowing into us, where, as you say, we can either accept them and make them a part of ourselves or reject them and exclude them from our identity.
In terms of “appearances of truth,” reincarnation is like the “appearance” that the sun rises and sets. It just doesn’t. The earth turns. But to us it appears as if it rises and sets. It’s no problem talking that way if we want to, for convenience’s sake. Many people still do think that the earth is the center of the universe, and the sun orbits around it. However, that’s not what’s really happening. And if we persist in that view in the face of contrary evidence, and start trying to come up with a cosmology based on the earth being the center of the universe and the sun revolving around it, we’ll fall into all kinds of fallacies, falsities, and contradictions.
It is the same if we try to construct a spiritual cosmology based on the idea that bodily reincarnation actually does happen. As I say in the article, this ultimately robs us of our humanity. And that, in turn, does away with the entire reason for the creation of the universe by God. Under the doctrine of reincarnation, there really isn’t any reason for God to create the universe, because the end result is to return right back to the original condition, with no particularly good reason for everything in the middle ever to have happened.
How would angels and spirits who believed in reincarnation in their life on the physical world still believe in reincarnation after death if they are living in an eternal heaven/hell?
Hi Luna,
The human mind has an amazing ability to see what it wants to see, and not to see what it doesn’t want to see.
How, for example, can so many people still, in the twenty-first century, believe that the earth is flat, even though we now have thousands of photos of Earth from space showing beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is a sphere, not a flat disk? Thinking people have known for thousands of years that the earth is a sphere. There is so much evidence for a spherical (technically, oblate spheroid) Earth that this is just basic cosmological knowledge today.
Yet Flat Earthers just shrug it all off and continue to believe that the earth is flat. In fact, they spend many hours coming up with completely unscientific “science” to prove that they are right, and the earth is flat. Anyone with even the slightest knowledge of science and cosmology can see that their “science” is ridiculous nonsense. But to them, it looks like incontrovertible truth.
If people here on earth can continue to believe ridiculous things despite massive amounts of evidence to the contrary, then they will continue to believe fallacious and wrong things such as reincarnation even when they are living in the spiritual world. That is, they will if they have so strongly convinced themselves of these wrong ideas that they are completely unwilling to give them up. And there, just like Flat Earthers here on earth, they will get together with other people who believe the same crazy things as they do, and form echo chambers in which they all assure each other that these crazy ideas are the absolute truth.
I think you have a good point, but im not intellectually satisfied.
Swedenborg’s description of the devils’ pleasures is just disgusting, I can’t think of any other word. It just doesn’t seem to have any logic, why would they prefer Hell over Heaven? If the answer is: “because they never had the opportunity to experience Heaven”, wouldn’t that be unfair? Many people (even adults) lack the “spiritual enlightment” to make the decision of experiencing the best of life, or going upward to Heaven… If the answer is: “because they twisted nature makes them find Hell more pleasurable over Heaven”… well then there is something wrong with Heaven that brings the possibility of some souls choosing Hell. In any other way that would be just sad, what about psychopaths who can’t feel emotions or love, or serial killers that have been abused in their childhood (the mentally-ill Ed Gein for example)? They just can’t help it. An eternal Hell for those people would just be sad.
Why reincarnation deprives us from our humanity? God made it that way, or is that your own opinion? Because many people do not see it that way. Why should we assume that past life memories are other souls’ memories and not ours? We have no logical reason for assuming that (Actually -and to be fair- we do not have evidence that past life memories are real)… Why should we think that the evidence of past lives is not veridical (or is twisted) while evidence of Heaven is?
Something that is clearly an advantage in reincarnation over Christian beliefs, is that we have unlimited time to make the choices that will bring us the greater good, so everyone can achieve it, and no one has to get stuck in Hell, nevermind it is or not a choice to enjoy “the stench of excrement, the reek of dead bodies, and the smell of stagnant urine” (my God…), We can reincarnate and choose to live a better life, without the need of an eternal “consequence” for what we experienced in one lifespan. It all depends on how you look it, and both points of view are valid, but if reincarnation is real, every soul created can reach God, without getting stucked in their self-created Hell, not wanting to be part of God’s Love. They can “try it again” and reach Heaven after all.
And ultimately: Why is the Bible more reliable than any other source? Is biased to simply assume that the Bible is legitimate, while the Vedas are not… According to who is Jesus a better teacher than Krishna?
Altough I respect anyone’s beliefs (as I like mine to be respected as well…) this text is full of unjustified assumptions: for example that Swedenborg is “the one human being in all of history who has had the most extensive first-hand experience in the spiritual world”… It just doesn’t work that way… I could say the same of Siddharta Gautama, wich as you may know, supports reincarnation. Anita Moorjani had a very intensive NDE, and she supports reincarnation, she experienced what could be described as cosmic consciousness (wich is the ultimate source of wisdom a person can achieve) and she is convinced reincarnation is real. She felt she was outside time and space, she was what she called “Universal energy”… in other words: God (not the Bible God, but some kind of eternal, infinite and perfect Cosmic Mind that is All That Is). Assuming that something regarding the spiritual world is real just because Swedenborg says so doesn’t convince me (again, to be fair, assuming that reincarnation is real just because Anita says so doesn’t convince me, either). One of my best friends was a diagnosed schizophrenic, and what he had to say about the spiritual world wasn’t very pleasing… (I’m not suggesting that Swedenborg -or Anita Moorjani, for that matter- was schizophrenic, but trying to point out that we should not take anyone’s word as the Ultimate Truth).
Just one more thing: I don’t have anything against the belief in eternal Heaven or Hell, actually, I find the idea of an eternal resting place of Infinite Love and joyous work, reunited with all my loved ones quite appealing. But I don’t see why that belief is more valid that a belief in reincarnation.
Hi Luciano,
Thanks for your thoughtful comments and questions.
If you personally believe in reincarnation, and that belief helps you to feel that the universe is just and life is fair, the last thing I want to do is try to argue you out of it. As I said in the article, I believe that one of the reasons reincarnation is available to us humans as a belief we can hold to if we choose is that it does help many people feel that life is fair, given the great injustices in this world. I can respect that–even if I see the fairness of life and of God operating in a different way. Of course, the views expressed in this article are my own, as informed by the spiritual sources that I trust. You are free to make up your own mind what to believe. That freedom to choose our own beliefs and our own faith is part of the humanity placed in us by God.
About Swedenborg, I’m simply not aware of anyone else in history, Eastern or Western, who had the length or depth of fully conscious experience in the spiritual world while still living in this world that Swedenborg did. If there is someone else who spent nearly three decades able to be fully conscious in the spiritual world at will (not just hearing voices or sensing spiritual influences), I would certainly like to know about it!
About fairness, my belief is that nobody goes to hell unless he or she makes a free, informed choice to live an evil and destructive life instead of a good and constructive life. Nobody goes to hell because they weren’t taught properly, or had a mental illness, or were abused as a child, or for any other reason besides a free moral choice for evil over good. For more on this, please see the article:
Can Gang Members Go to Heaven? (Is Life Fair?)
The Bible contains the holy scriptures given for people in the Judaeo-Christian perspective. As such, it is the primary text I turn to, since I am a Christian. People of other faiths will naturally turn to their own scriptures rather than the Bible. I do believe there is something special about the Bible that isn’t in most other Scriptures. But that is my view, which people of other faiths are free to disagree with.
However, I do also believe that when the Eastern scriptures speak of rebirth, they, like the Bible, are actually speaking of spiritual rebirth, not about the literal return of a soul to another body, which is physical rebirth.
I’m aware that many adherents of Eastern religions interpret those teachings in their scriptures literally rather than spiritually. But if I were to turn to the Eastern scriptures instead of the Bible, I would interpret them spiritually just as I interpret the Bible spiritually. In Christianity, we have fundamentalists who interpret the Bible literally. I disagree with them just as much as I disagree with the literalists and fundamentalists of other religions.
In short, I believe that even the Eastern scriptures do not teach reincarnation when they are seen from a more spiritually oriented perspective.
Finally, as I explained in the article, I believe that real humanity means that we must have a real choice whether or not to be in a loving relationship with God and with our fellow human beings.
So here’s a question for you: What if, even given a billion lives and a billion opportunities, a particular soul still chooses evil over good? Will that person’s freely made choice be rejected every single time–even a trillion, trillion, trillion times–until he or she makes the “right” choice?
I find the idea that sooner or later we must all choose good to be very overbearing and tyrannical, and entirely opposed to the freedom and rationality that make us human. I find it to be cruel and disrespectful to force souls to continue to go through life after life until we make the “right” choice as approved by God.
A good parent will discipline a child whose behavior is selfish and destructive. But there comes a time when good parents must let go of their children (as they enter adulthood) and let them live their own lives as they choose–even if it is far from the kind of life that the parent wanted them to live.
To me, one of the most amazing things about God is that even though God loves each one of us fully and infinitely, God also respects us enough not to impose God’s own way on us whether we want it or not. God respects us enough to let us choose what kind of life we want to live, and to allow us to live that way forever if that is what we have chosen.
Like a good parent, God makes every possible effort to teach, guide, discipline, and cajole us into choosing love, truth, justice, and compassion over selfishness, greed, cruelty, and oppression of others. But if we persistently choose evil over good, God will, in the end, respect that choice, and leave us to the life we have chosen–as dark and disgusting as it looks from God’s infinitely loving and wise perspective.
This is why I don’t believe in reincarnation, and its idea that all people will eventually become one with God. If we are not ultimately allowed to choose how we will live, but will all eventually end out in the same place no matter what we do, how are we even human?
And in that case, what more is this world than a sad and pointless exercise in pain and suffering with no reason to exist, because in the end everything will just return to the way it was in the beginning? Why would God put us through all this pain? Why not just stay one with God in the first place? To me, reincarnation would make the entire created universe cruel, pointless, and inhuman.
Still, I respect those who believe in reincarnation. I have no wish to engage in debate and argument with those who are happy with their beliefs and find them spiritually helpful and fulfilling, even if their beliefs differ greatly from my own. If you find reincarnation to be a sensible and helpful belief for your spiritual life, I wish you well!
However, your general question seems to be why I do not believe in reincarnation. This is my honest answer.
Yes, I’m now sattisfied with your answer. I personally don’t see reincarnation in that way (It’s just a matter of perspective, isn’t it?), and I think maybe there is a little of truth in every aspect of human beliefs.
Differences are what makes us unique, and that is always a good thing, this kind of dialogues are what makes life richer for me! Always respecting the other person 🙂
Thank you for your answer, and excuse my bad english, as my name may suggest, I’m spanish, not american! haha
I truly find your posts very enlightening. Thank you for your contributions!
There are several people that I know of from India who have been connected with the spiritual world for most of their lives. Some examples – Swami Lakshmanjoo Maharaj, Ramana Maharishi, Lahiri Mahasaya, Sri Yukteshwar Giri, Paramahamsa Yogananda, etc. These are just some of the people in the last couple of centuries that I follow for my spiritual journey. There are several others since the Vedic period and in the present. They do teach reincarnation. Paramhamsa Yogananda explains in his book “Autobiography of a Yogi” why reincarnation happens and he also gives a very nice perspective on phrases from the Bible. According to him, reincarnation happens because of human desire and the karmic law states all desires must come true. So it is definitely by choice, even if one doesn’t consciously realize that. I also like this particular book because it talks in detail about a lot of the metaphysics that I haven’t found in many scriptures or commentaries.
As for the statement on Bhagavad Gita, there are other Hindu scriptures such as Bhagavata Purana, Vishnu Purana that explicitly say Arjuna and Krishna were humans with different names in a previous lifetime in a previous age – Hindu scriptures talk about Yugas (ages, like Stone Age, Bronze Age, etc.). I think these scriptures along with the Bhagavad Gita led to the current belief system of reincarnation. There is also a common misunderstanding that our karma determines our life. According to scriptures, past karma only determines the situations we will be put into in our present life. How we choose to act in these situations is our free will and that becomes karma for future lives if we do not attain salvation. If reincarnation is indeed true, I would like to think the “eternal hell” described in the Bible is actually repeated life on earth because some people prefer material life over the eternal bliss with God. I do not have a strong belief either way with respect to the concept of reincarnation. At least, not yet 🙂
I completely agree with you that reincarnation is unnecessary if we truly connect with God and attain salvation in one lifetime and I also agree that whether we believe in reincarnation or not is immaterial. The important part is we need to focus on living by God’s words and connecting with God to receive the ever-flowing grace in the present to attain salvation. This is exactly what enlightenment and self-realization is all about too – living fully in the present to receive the grace and enjoying the flow of life with love and compassion for all.
Hi Divya,
Thanks for stopping by, and for your good thoughts. I’m glad you’re enjoying the articles here!
I am far from an expert on Hinduism and Hindu scriptures. However, I am aware that some of them do say things that confirm the idea of reincarnation for people, and I am aware that many Hindu masters do teach reincarnation.
This, I believe, is for similar reasons that the Bible makes statements that sound like we are going to be physically resurrected at some future Last Judgment, and our afterlife will be on a newly re-formed physical earth. The reason for this is that many people cannot think spiritually; they can think only materially. If such people did not believe that they would eventually live again in their physical body, they would not believe in any afterlife at all. This would result in many of them rejecting God and religion altogether, and just living for the worldly and physical pleasures they can get in this life.
Similarly, I believe that the Hindu scriptures make statements that can be read as meaning literal, physical reincarnation because just like many Westerners, many Easterners are physical-minded, and cannot think spiritually. If they didn’t believe in a literal, physical reincarnation, in which the karma of their actions in this life would follow them, many of them would reject God, spirit, and religion altogether, and would live self-indulgent and thoughtless lives.
Meanwhile just as Western religion (primarily Christianity) has become more and more external over the centuries, I suspect that a similar thing has happened to Eastern religions, one of the oldest of which is Hinduism. I believe that Buddhism arose out of Hinduism to begin the movement away from what had become a choking and stratified belief in the long cycle of reincarnation that supported the oppressive caste system. Buddhism taught that anyone, of any caste, could attain enlightenment in a single lifetime. This leveled the playing field and did away with the religious justification for some people to think they were better than others because of their birth, parentage, and skin color.
People who can think spiritually can read the Hindu scriptures spiritually rather than literally, just as people of a spiritual mindset can read the Bible spiritually rather than literally. They can then understand that the deeper meaning of passages that seem to be talking about physical rebirth is really about spiritual rebirth. People who read the scriptures of their religion spiritually rather than literally can read them as speaking about the spiritual rebirth and spiritual journey that we go through in our current lifetime, and can be inspired by this to walk the spiritual path with greater motivation and meaning.
I am also aware that many spiritual leaders, both Eastern and Western, have lifelong connections with the spiritual world. But that is not the same as being fully conscious in the spiritual world, as Swedenborg was.
Great spiritual leaders often have spiritual and angelic presences with them that inspire them and give them enlightenment about God and spirit. But I’m not aware of any others besides Swedenborg who had all of their senses fully open in the spiritual world as if they had already died and gone to the spiritual world themselves, so that they could walk among angels and spirits, visit them in their homes and communities, and engage in conversation with them just as we do with one another here on earth. Yes, I’m aware that many people have had brief experiences of this type. But not almost continuously for decades.
That is the experience Swedenborg had for the last twenty-seven years of his life. To my knowledge, no one else in history has even claimed to have that kind of experience of the spiritual world for that many years.
Still, as you say, whether or not we believe in reincarnation is not the most important thing. The important thing is living a God-filled life of love, compassion, and service to our fellow human beings.
Hello Lee,
this post is nine years old but I hope you still come across this comment.
I really like Swedenborg’s philosophy and the idea of not having to reincarnate, so the point of this comment is not to argue with you what’s true or false, but I do actually know some persons that recently talked about being in the afterlife for some time.
If I have to choose the one, whose experiences I need to get explained is Jurgen Ziewe.
He claims to been having OBEs since the 70s until today and he says that reincarnation is real. He also supports the hindu beliefs, so, technically you could call him a hindu. He uses hindu terms while talking about the afterlife like “Jiva”, “the akashic records” and he also talked about cosmic consciousness which I didn’t really understand but I understood that he claims to have been enlightened. Also, many other people who claim, that they constantly had OBEs believe in reincarnation.
I would be greatful, if you could help me. Because I think it would take quite a while, let me know before.😄
I’m hoping for an answer!🙂
Hi Anton,
Thanks for stopping by, and for your comment and question. Yes, I’m still here, and happy to answer your good question. 🙂
It is common for people who have a particular belief system to have those beliefs confirmed by their spiritual experiences. Yes, sometimes people’s beliefs are changed by having an OBE or NDE. But just as commonly they “see what they want to see,” as the saying goes. In other words, the experience confirms already existing beliefs. Christians will see Pearly Gates and no reincarnation. Hindus will see the Akashic Records and reincarnation. People of other religions and beliefs will see other things that confirm their already existing beliefs.
This happens for many reasons.
First and foremost, our beliefs are part of who we are. Entering the spiritual world, either briefly or for an extended visit or permanently doesn’t necessarily change that. Some of our lightly held beliefs may drop off based on the new experiences we have there. But strongly and deeply held beliefs will persist. Here on earth, people believe many outlandish things, such as that the earth is flat, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. If we have firmly entrenched ourselves in a particular belief, we will interpret everything we see based on that belief, and will simply reject whatever doesn’t support it.
This doesn’t change in the spiritual world. Keep in mind that our beliefs exist in our mind, which is part of our spiritual self. Entering the spiritual world has no effect upon them, except perhaps to make them even stronger and clearer and more firmly held. People of good heart will eventually let go of some of their less important beliefs that aren’t part of their core understanding of life. And people who do not have firmly held beliefs will be willing to be taught the truth if their heart is good. But beliefs that we have confirmed and supported through many arguments and much study are very resistant to change. In the spiritual world, Swedenborg encountered Protestant theologians and clerics who were still writing thick tomes supporting Luther’s doctrine of justification by faith alone long after they hid died and gone to the spiritual world, even though it is an entirely unbiblical and false belief, and completely contrary to the light of heaven. These were people who took great pride in their own superior intelligence and erudition, who therefore made their bed in hell rather than in heaven.
In the spiritual world we are even more likely to have our existing beliefs confirmed than here on earth because there, as they say, “birds of a feather flock together.” The very atmosphere of the spiritual world brings us together with other people who think and feel the same way we do. Those are the people we interact with there, and of course, since they agree with our beliefs, they will confirm that everything we believe is true. That’s just how the spiritual world works. People who have very faulty beliefs but a good heart may have to go through some very hard experiences before they are finally ready to let go of those false beliefs so that they can live in the light of heaven, which is divine and spiritual truth.
Some faulty beliefs also are not eradicated in the spiritual world, but rather raised to a higher level. The idea of reincarnation, for example, can be lifted up to the idea of spiritual rebirth, as discussed in the above article. This shift can happen almost unconsciously in the spiritual world because the spiritual environment there does this to objects, ideas, and beliefs. They are all transformed into their spiritual counterparts.
In the reverse direction, spiritual beliefs can easily be converted into their materialistic counterparts in the minds of people from earth who spend some time in the spiritual world, especially if they think rather materialistically about God, spirit, and religion. The idea of spiritual rebirth, which is a true and spiritual idea, can easily be converted into reincarnation, which is a materialistic and false version of that idea. So a person who encounters the concept or the practiced reality of being spiritually born again in the spiritual world may seamlessly and unconsciously experience it as a confirmation in their pre-existing belief in reincarnation. This is especially true if their mind runs along physical and materialistic lines, as is the case with people who believe in bodily reincarnation.
This is one of the reasons God and the angels don’t argue with people from earth about their beliefs. The angels see the deeper meanings of those beliefs. They also recognize that arguing with people about their beliefs is fruitless and a waste of time. So instead of doing so, they simply use people’s existing beliefs to motivate them toward living a good life, not breaking those beliefs, but bending them toward what is good and true. This is the meaning of the prophecy about Jesus in Isaiah 42:3, quoted in Matthew 12:20:
If the angels encounter a person who believes in reincarnation, they will not try to break or quench that belief. If they were to do so, they would be putting themselves in opposition to that person’s beliefs, and their character that is formed by those beliefs, and would not be able to do anything for him or her. Instead they would cause the person to fight against whatever the angels want to inculcate into him or her. So they let people continue in their existing beliefs, and lead and guide them toward living a good life of love and service to others based on that belief. There will be plenty of time in the afterlife to correct faulty beliefs if the person is open to it. And people of good heart will be open to it.
All these things, I am sure, are what are happening with this Jurgen Ziewe person, and to others who have OBEs or NDEs or other spiritual experiences that confirm their existing beliefs, such as Ziewe’s belief in reincarnation and other Hindu doctrines. Reincarnation does not happen in the usual sense of that word. But it serves as a stand-in for people whose thinking is rather materialistic, giving them a reason to live a good life in this life so that they don’t have to endure another life that is worse, or even an endless and tiresome cycle lives in this world of struggle until they finally “get it right.” This is an example of how angels use the false belief in bodily reincarnation to motivate its adherents to live a good life.
For the same reason, it is not only useless, but counterproductive to try to argue people out of false beliefs, whether it is reincarnation or justification by faith alone or anything else. Not only will they not listen to you, but arguing with you will actually cause them to hold more firmly to their existing beliefs as they bring up more and more counterarguments to support what they believe, and to combat your differing belief. People’s beliefs do not change through argument. They change through life experience. And firmly held false beliefs can generally be changed only through major life crises that shake the person’s faith and render him or her open to a different perspective on life.
As for whether to believe Jurgen Ziewe or Emanuel Swedenborg on any subject, including reincarnation, ultimately you’ll have to make up your own mind about that. However, I will put Swedenborg’s nearly three decades of almost daily full consciousness in the spiritual world up against Jurgen Ziewe’s repeated OBEs any day of the week. For more on why, please see:
Do the Teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg take Precedence over the Bible?
I hope these thoughts, and the linked article, help as you sort these things out in your own mind..
Hello Lee,
I recently watched a video by Ziewe again, which led to me, thinking, I solved a misconception of Ziewe’s experiences, which doesn’t really make me feel comfortable.
In his latest video, he says, that reincarnation works like this: If someone dies, this person then inhabits a region, that manifests through their inner self. But the person then starts to act like they did in the world, he says, and if their soul isn’t really willing/eager to let go of the ego and experience…MORE, it then falls into a, sort of, sleep, from which it awakes as a baby in the womb and having completly forgotten their previous life. Can you relate to what somehow, from Swedenborg’s perspective? Also, I began to watch more of his videos again, which led to even more confusion, as there were things that I simply forgot about or could explain to myself earlier, which is now somehow getting harder.
You made a point when we were talking about Swedenborg a few weeks before, that came, to me, in like a game-changer: We were talking about Ziewe’s experiences and how to align them with what Swedenborg learned. Ziewe claims to have gotten first-hand-experiences by seeing and interprering and also talking to people there/spirits. You said that if people in an out-of-body-state were to talk with spirits there, the spirits would actually rather avoid telling them truths that they don’t believe in. So, Ziewe had an experience where he was talking to his mother, who at some point said: “You have to stop identifying me as your mother, as in your next life, I might be your sister or uncle.”
Now, this I can explain to myself. But the question is: “What about not what he learned from talking to spirits, but what about what he experienced?
He said, he someday lost his ego-identification and saw the totality of his self as millions and billions of energy-centers, and if he zoomed into them, he could see, and even experience a past life. Partially not even on this earth but on other planets or even dimensions. I could explain this to myself by saying: “Oh, yeah, he just connected to god, as this is god, he’s this many centers of energy-fields and the unity consciousness and people can dive into his consciousness by meditation and stuff.”
But why do so many people who ecperience this God- or “unity-consciousness” instantly connect it to reincarnation? And I think, that’s because the concept is the same. They experience this “unity-consciousness” as a consciousness of finding ways to solve problems. (Karma)
And as a little recap: If our consciousness is not yet evolved to the point where we can access this, we reincarnate unconscious, and if we’re giving up the ego-identification we can then see, how that whole system works.
Can you explain this in a not-reincarnating-way? Because I’ve got trouble with it.
Plus: If you got some spare time, and I don’t want to sound compelling, I just think it’s a chance for me and for you, are you willing to watch some videos and interviews of Ziewe? As he represents the modern-day-mainstream-out-of-bidy-experiencer and I think you can understand more of my confusion if you watch his videos instead of reading my reproduction of his experiences.
But don’t feel forced, time in the physical world is limited!😄
Thanks for all the help, Lee!🙂
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
As with every false belief, reincarnation does have a grain of truth behind it. Falsity has no core existence of its own. It consists of truth that has been twisted or corrupted into a false shape. That’s how it is with the popular belief in bodily reincarnation.
The grain of truth behind reincarnation is that we are born again. It’s just that we are born again spiritually, not physically.
However, for people whose minds are materialistic, the truth of spiritual rebirth gets converted into a materialistic belief in reincarnation in new physical bodies one after another.
This is a similar phenomenon in Eastern religions to the common idea among many evangelical and fundamentalist Christians that at the time of the Last Judgment our physical body will rise from the grave and we will resume living in it on a new physical earth that has replaced the old physical earth. This idea is based on a literal and materialistic reading of Bible passages that are meant to be read as parables and metaphors of spiritual things—in this case, of resurrection in our spiritual body in the spiritual world after the death of our physical body.
The Eastern scriptures are also talking about spiritual rebirth when they use the words commonly translated “born again” or “reincarnated.” But because people in the Eastern world, and Westerners who have adopted Eastern beliefs along with them, have become just as materialistic as people in the Western world who adhere to Western religions, the Eastern scriptures have similarly been converted into materialistic ideas such as bodily reincarnation.
I know you have viewed Ziewe as a spiritual-minded person. But his belief in bodily reincarnation tells a different story. It says that he still thinks materially rather than spiritually when it comes to the process of death and rebirth.
You ask why so many people instantly connect their spiritual experiences to reincarnation. This is the reason. They think materialistically. Therefore whatever spiritual experiences they have about death and rebirth gets converted in their mind into a belief in reincarnation and its various details.
Similarly, the grain of truth behind the Eastern idea that we must let go of our ego-consciousness and become merged into the universal God-consciousness is that we do have to let go of our egotistical ego that is all wrapped up in our sense of our own greatness and goodness, and instead accept the presence of God in our soul, mind, and life, recognizing that everything we are and everything we have is from God and is God’s in and around us, not our own.
The error in popular Eastern thought is that this means we lose all sense of individuality, and simply merge into some general undifferentiated god-consciousness, so that we no longer have any individual existence. This is false. Rather, as Swedenborg writes:
In other words, being truly God-conscious makes us more of a distinct individual, not less. The difference is that we then recognize that our distinctive individual identity is a continual gift from God, not something we can claim credit for ourselves or claim as our own. God wants to give us this sense of distinctive identity because that is how we can live a happy human life in relationship with other people and with God.
Really, Ziewe’s apparent belief that true enlightenment is being dissolved into “energy-fields and the unity consciousness” is a rejection of the spiritual level of existence.
In Swedenborg’s schema, there is the divine level of existence, the spiritual level of existence, and the material level of existence, each distinct from the other two. The divine level of existence is God. The material level of existence is the material universe and the human body. The spiritual level of existence is the spiritual universe, including the human mind (which is the human spirit) and our spiritual body.
In saying that we become dissolved into some sort of God-consciousness, Ziewe and others who believe like him are saying that the spiritual realm has no real existence of its own. It is just a bridge between the physical universe/body and God, which we pass through on our way to re-merging with God, from whom we came.
The practical effect of this is that Ziewe will believe that what Swedenborg calls the spiritual world is ultimately empty and unformed. It has no lasting existence. It, like the physical world and body, is ultimately an illusion. Only God is real, and our ultimate fate is to re-merge with God.
Again, this false idea has a grain of truth to it. That grain of truth is that we have separated ourselves from God, and the goal of our spiritual journey, or rebirth process here on earth is to reconnect with God. But this process leads, not to merging with God such that we are simply a part of God, but with entering into a mutually free and loving relationship with God as beings distinct from God.
If that were not so, what would be the point of the physical universe and our lifetime in it? Why go through all this pain and suffering if ultimately we end out in the same place we started, as part of God?
There is an idea in Eastern and New Age thought that this is God experiencing many states of being, which then become merged into God. But this presupposes a non-infinite God. Specifically, a God who has limited knowledge, understanding, experience, and wisdom, such that God must gain more by sending out sparks from God’s self to experience many things and bring those experiences back to God.
Once again (you guessed it!) this is based on a materialistic conception of God. Time and space are properties of the physical universe. Learning, experience, and change in understanding and awareness are properties of the spiritual universe. Humans have a material element and a spiritual element. Therefore we experience time sequentially and space spatially, and similarly experience passage of events in the spiritual world in which we have experiences one after another from which we learn and grow in knowledge, understanding, wisdom, and love.
None of this applies to God. God exists on the divine level, which is beyond time and space and its spiritual analogs. God does not experience new things, and learn and grow from them. God is omniscient. This means that God knows all things. If God were to send out sparks to gain new experiences which would then re-merge with God such that God gained more knowledge, wisdom, and experience in the process, this would mean that God’s knowledge is finite, not infinite. It would mean that God does not encompass all knowledge and experience, but can grow in knowledge and experience just like a (finite) human being.
In short, this entire view of re-merging with God is a materialistic view, or at best a material/spiritual view of God. It sees God as some sort of superhuman being, like one of the Greek or Roman gods. It misses the truth, which is that God is neither material nor spiritual, but divine.
I could go on, but this is getting long. I’ll pause for now and let you read this much and come back with any further thoughts or questions you may want to discuss and explore. If there’s something you said that I haven’t responded to, and you still want my response, feel free to ask the same question again.
As for watching Ziewe videos, do I want to watch a whole series of Ziewe videos to learn what he believes and teaches? Not really. As you say, our time in this physical world is limited!
However, if there is a particular video or two that you have specific questions or wonderments about, and it would help if I watched and reacted to it/them, I’m willing to do that. You already did post one Ziewe video that I watched and responded to.
Yes, I absolutly agree with you, about, that Ziewe’s experiences suggest, that God is finite and that the believe in the whole mission just being about reuniting with our core is neither very comforting nor reasonable.
Ziewe says, that the reason why we’re going through all of this, and why we’re here, is that the higher consciousness (he doesn’t use the term “God”) indeed is not complete, and that, if you will, it wants to experience EVERYTHING that’s possible out there! Just…that’s the simpliest way of describing it.😅
And that’s why, he says, consciousness is eternal, and even enlightened souls come back to the physical plane(s) to learn, as we as souls try to experience everything that’s possible to do. Every possible state of mind, every possible plant, life forms, even laws of physics, it wants to see/experience. Do you got any thoughts on this concept behind it? I…can’t really tell, if this sounds rather materialistic or spiritual to me, tho.😄
If you’re willing to hear/see Ziewe talking about the concepts of his, and how he built it up in his mind around his experiences, I’ve got 2-3 videos cued up for you, as there may be some points, that you just may understand better by watching the videos on your own, and maybe I even missed out something!😄
If you are, in the end, willing to watch one, let me know, and until tomorrow, I’ll decide, which one would be the most effective one, to help me.
Kind wishes🙂
Hi Anton,
Perhaps I should modify my earlier assessment and say that from a Swedenborgian Christian perspective, Ziewe does believe in the spiritual realm of existence, but not in the divine realm. In other words, Ziewe doesn’t believe in God as a (true) Christian would think of God. He believes only in some spiritual “universal consciousness” that is always learning and growing. That’s what I would call created and finite human consciousness, not divine consciousness.
Really, it’s the modern Eastern equivalent of the ancient Greek and Roman pantheon of gods and goddesses. They weren’t infinite, eternal, omniscient, and so on. They were basically superhuman beings, very much like ordinary mortals but more powerful. Talking about it as “energy fields” doesn’t change the fundamental reality that this “universal consciousness” is finite and limited, not infinite and unlimited as the Christian God is (not the false trinitarian gods).
“Energy fields” sounds all woo-woo. But it’s really just adopting and mysticalizing the language of modern physics—which, after all, is a material view of the universe. Yes, everything is energy and all. E=MC2. Far out, man!!! But that’s just the physics of it. It doesn’t say anything about the human and personal nature of God and creation.
For comparison, please see:
How does The Force in Star Wars relate to God and Spirit?
And about the infinite and omniscient nature of God that is above and beyond time and space, please see:
Some of the articles linked for further reading at the end of these two may also be relevant.
About the videos, if they’re not too long and you have questions related to them, go ahead and post the links here and I’ll take a look.
Also, here’s the playlist, where Ziewe and Marable are talking about life after death, if you’ve got some free spots in your to-do-list. 😀
They really talk about everything, that I didn’t adress yet, just as in my comment from some minutes before; Take your time!
(I really appreciate all of your answers so far! You didn’t hear from me, for a while, but I really think, there should be more people like you, who take their time and knowledge and help people understand Christian and Swedenborg’s views on modern day life! And especially answer the many, many questions, the people have!
Kind wishes and a lovely week,
Anton
Hi Anton,
Good to hear from you again, my friend. Thanks for your kind words.
Is this multiple videos? And are there any particular ideas or points made in them that you would like me to respond to?
Hi Lee,
thanks for your comprehensive answers!
LatelyI was wondering about what we will remember in the afterlife, I think, one of my questions was also about this topic, but then I stumbled upon the Swedenborg Foundation’s article about the difference of the “inner memory” and “outer memory”, of which in the afterlife, we’ll only be allowed to use the inner memory, which builds itself if the outer memory. The inner memory is far superior to the outer one. The outer memory contains mainly routines, like how to speak letters or words, how to get to the market or to the bureau, and so on. We won’t need this in the afterlife. We’ll speak the angelic language, and we don’t have to get to our old bureau. The inner memory only contains important things we learned, such as how to love, how to show affention and such things, but there is a way, by which things from the puter memory can be “leveled up”😅 to the inner memory. For example by really loving something.
So, this is (nearly) everything I know about this topic.
But I saw a roleplay by some people of the Swedenborg Foundation, about which I want to ask you something;
Two spirits are sitting in a room playing memory. An angel walks in.
The Angel: ” Hey folks, I hope, you’re all enjoying your sty in the world of spirits?”
Spirit A: “It’s going great! I love this game-room. Memory was actually my favourite game back when I was a kid!
The Angel: “We aim to please! But I could guide you to your next state of spiritual development, to Heaven!
Spirit 1: “Sounds nice! But can we play this game first?”
The Angel: “Of course.”
Spirit 2: “My turn!”
Gets his guess right
Spirit 2: “Haha! I love this! I collected all this information, I gathered all this knowledge, I’m so wise, and I’m happy to be wise!”
The Angel: “You know, actually, some of the knowledge won’t be relevant or usefeul in Heaven. And a lot is incorrect anyway.”
Spirit 2: “But…all this knowledge has been so fun to me…”
The Angel: “Most of it is clutter and will make it hard to take in new knowledge. But turn over that card. And that one.
Shows to two memory-cards on the table. Spirit 2 turns them.
The two cards show: “ability to learn” and “love of learning”
The Angel: “That’s something you can keep active forever. You can let the rest go. It’ll be there in storage if you need it, but there’s much cooler Stufe to learn now!”
Spirit 2 thinks a while, then nods his head and the Angel takes him to Heaven.
(Spirit 1 looks after them, looks into the camera or the eye of the viewer, shrugs his shoulders and continuses playing.😅)
I really love history and just as the 2nd Spirit, I’m doing a lot of research, and while it’s fun, I can see, that the stuff, the Angel talks about, could be cooler.🙂
But still, I’d like to ask, whether there are Angels who really, still, in Heaven, learn and care about earthly history?
I remember hearing an NDE story, where the near-dead was taken to a sort of, library, where an Angel was “watching” the battle of Gettysburg and the Angel said, that she really was really interested in the American Civil War, while on earth, and continued being interested in the afterlife. Or was the second spirit completely focused on the knowledge itself to be “wise” and not particularly interested in something? Has this: “You can {…} let it go.” anothef meaning, and would the memory pop up (more) often if someone’s interested in something more tangible rather than the wisdom itself? Does this play a role in this story?
Plus, with the playlist videos, I would ask you, if you could watch the videos and then respond to the contets of the videos from a Swedenborgian Christian perspective, for example the two talking about the possibility, that you can create your own children in the afterlife. Rather bizarr…I really don’t know ’bout it 😀
Kind wishes and a good Weekend
Hi Anton,
Yes, the inner memory contains deeper things than the outer memory. But both of these memories are actually in our spirit, and not in our body. The interweaving of neurons, axons, and dendrites in the brain that physiologists believe is how our memories are formed are only correspondential representations in our physical body of memories that are actually stored in our spiritual mind.
This means that both our inner memory and our outer memory continue to exist when we leave our physical body behind and begin living solely in our spiritual body in the spiritual world. And not only that, but every single detail of everything we have ever experienced on earth is permanently recorded in our memory. So much so that things we did and experienced in the physical world can not only be recalled, but replayed in full-sensory detail in the spiritual world—including things that we didn’t even notice at the time. This happens, for example, when in the afterlife criminals try to deny their criminal deeds, and have them replayed in full detail one after another until they are forced to admit that they actually did these things.
All of our memory, including our memory of earthly knowledge and experience in the material world, remains with us forever.
The question is not whether it remains available. The question is whether we will have any interest in accessing it. If not, just like memories here on earth, it will fade into the background, like books in a library’s deep stacks where few people ever go. But if we do want to access it for any reason, there is nothing stopping us from doing so.
In general, I would suggest that even if an angel or spirit wanted to watch the battle of Gettysburg, the interest would not be in the battle itself, but in the clash of human desires and ideas that the battle reflects in all its detail. Spiritual things, and spiritual clashes, are just as complex and detailed as earthly ones. Every sword slashed and every bullet fired represents some specific aspect of some particular spiritual conflict between good and evil, and between truth and falsity. I don’t think it’s impossible that an angel would want to view the battle of Gettysburg. But the angel would be thinking about in a different way than you or I would ordinarily think about it.
About creating our own children in the afterlife: We are not God. We don’t actually create things. We only serve as conduits through which God creates things. That’s especially true of creating new human beings, who are the most precious things in God’s Creation.
But on the practical level, a human being requires time in this world to form a foundation for eternal life in the spiritual world. That’s why no new humans are formed and born in the spiritual world, but only in the material world.
Oh, and one question I’ve got to this, agreeably strange point of creating children, is it possible for Angels, if they wish to, create landscapes? And if yes, can they build villages, cities, towns and so on? (As a hobby or something) And if yes, can they create sort of, robots or something like that, life forms, that look like humans, animals and so on…? I mean, Angels can create everything if they desire to, apart from real humans, that can evolve into or even “start” as spirits.
Although, again, I’m sure, Swedenborg didn’t talk about it (that much).😅
Kind wishes
Hi Anton,
Swedenborg did describe angels involved in handcrafts, sculpture, and so on. So it’s clear that angels can make things. In a loose sense that is “creating” things, though it’s not starting from scratch, because God provides the materials.
As for creating landscapes, that seems to be a more organic process of God creating landscapes around the angels that correspond to their states of mind. Again, in a loose sense you can say that the angels create the landscapes because those landscapes are really the angels’ individual and collective mindscapes manifesting all around them in created things. But once again, it’s really God doing the creating and providing the materials.
Hi Lee,
sounds like a good explanation to me.
I was also wondering, if these worlds fade away immediately for good, becuase maybe there can be a sort of storyline or something connected to this. Just another example: An Angel, who has been a comic or cartoon artist, who has turned his job into a hobby in Heaven. (Kind of the opposite, of what hopefully often happens.😊)
He likes to draw whole cartoon TOWNS and CITIES, which are REAL. He finally made his wish come true.
But since he is constantly drawing more and more cartoon towns, my question is, whether he’d be able to always visit his “older” towns by his memory of the towns (and even invite his family, friends and people from his Heaven-community, to visit these) or whether they fade away for good if he leaves them behind.
Best wishes
Hi Anton,
Everything we have ever said, done, thought, felt, and experienced is recorded in full detail in our inner (spiritual) memory. So much so that it is possible to replay events from earlier in our life as if we were there. Even things we didn’t notice at the time are recorded.
This means that anything your artist had created would be recorded in full detail in his memory, and could be recalled and recreated at will.
Memories do fade when we lose interest in them. However that fading is from our conscious awareness, not from our actual memory. It’s a matter of retrieval, not a matter of storage. So if there were some reason to recall even old memories that we have forgotten in our conscious mind, this can also be done.
In short, nothing is lost. Things fade from our awareness only when we have moved beyond them and are no longer interested in them. But they are still there, hidden away, constituting a formative part of our character.
Hi Lee,
many spiritualists believe, that there’s a place in the afterlife, that is called “Homecoming” and the name speaks for itself. The idea is that there’s a place, where you’re feeling as much home, as you could, because if you would have a look at the surroundings, you would realize, that you ARE your surroundings. You ARE the little plants around you, you ARE the smell in the air, you are just EVERYTHING there. (Or, if I understand it right, you at least SEEM to be everything there, because after all, they claim, that we are all one, because we came from the same coreconsciousness.)
However, they say that it’s not just a place, where you can just go without anything, rather it’s a state of mind that creates this place. Do you have general thoughts on that?
I also would like to ask: How can Angels come to earth and interact and influence us, if the time in the spiritual World is not as fixed as in the physical world? Sure, they can visit different times and relive that scene in bird’s eye view or worm’s perspective or whatever, to see, what had happened, (for example the assasination of Julius Caesar or the day-to-day life of people in the renaissance or whatever) but they can’t influence what is actually taking place then. So, is the time, through which Angels are living and experiencing equivalent to the time, that has gone by on earth? I also noticed, that Angels often have to wait until some relatives finally arrive at the spiritual World. And even dreams are dreamed, because of the conversations of nearby Angles. How is that, if time in the spiritual World is not the same as it is on earth?
Another question is, whether spirits or Angels will experience some sort of nostalgia or think about things, that they experienced. I don’t mean, that they come together, look at old photos and say sadly: “Man, look how happy we were, I wish I could go back and relive that scene…” Because they can. I mean something like just looking back at something great they had experienced and enjoyed (maybe even in Heaven). They remember, how they climbed that mountain together, how nice that soccer game they played was, or how beautiful that city was, which they visited.
Nice weekend and Kind wishes
Hi Anton,
On your first question, Swedenborg describes our surroundings in the spiritual world not as a “projection” of ourselves but rather as an environment created by God that corresponds to ourselves, or our character, and to the character of the people in our community. What’s around us there is not us. It is not part of us. We are still an individual whose self ends at our skin. But our environment is an expression, or better, a correspondence of ourselves. In other words, it reflects who we are—our thoughts, feelings, attitudes, beliefs, and so on.
This means that when we arrive at our community and our home in heaven, it does indeed feel like home to us. It is the perfect place for us, and we feel perfectly comfortable and contented there, because it expresses everything we feel is good and understand to be true. It will be different for different people, precisely because different people are different.
The second question is a tricky one. Though angels and spirits have no sense of time and space, they do have analogs of those things. “Time,” for them, is a passage of events as they experience new things and learn new things. “Space,” for them, is emotional closeness or distance from other people. Closeness to the people they love the most, and distance from the people they love the least, or don’t love at all. So even though they have no idea what earthly time or space is, they still put one foot in front of the other and go from one place to another as if they were in time and space.
They also don’t just float around in time, forward and backward. Their lives are always moving forward, never backward. They can remember the past, and they can have some idea of what will happen in the future, but the future has not yet happened for them. Yes, they could relive the times of the Caesars, but it would be from history or from memory, not from actually going back to the earthly time and place of the Caesars and experiencing it directly.
And though they do not experience time as we do, their progression of events does seem to be correlated with earthly time, so that someone who dies in 2015 will arrive there before someone who dies in 2020, and so on. The spiritual world is connected with the physical world via correspondences, which means that there are specific relationships between specific things and events in the spiritual world and corresponding ones in the physical world.
It’s somewhat hard for us here on earth to understand or believe that there could be this sort of correlation, yet angels and spirits still have no concept of time. But think of an infant, who lives in a continual present, without any concept of past or future, even though that infant actually is living physically in time and space. The infant’s body is in time and space, but the infant’s mind is not. Similarly an adult who is completely wrapped up in a project, or engaging in some highly enjoyable activity, may lose all track of time. Mentally and emotionally, he (or she) is not living in time, even though physically, eventually he will realize that he’s hungry, and re-enter a conscious awareness of time.
Similarly, angels and spirits live in the world that that infant or adult is living in mentally and emotionally when time and space fade away, even while being in connection with the physical world, where time and space do exist.
On your third question, yes, angels and spirits can look back on past experiences that they enjoyed, and experience the glow of them in the memory. Everything we can do here, angels and spirits can do in the spiritual world.
I just realized, that you mentioned in some previous answers that nothing we have ever known is forgotten for good, but things we don’t really need are simple moved aside until we need them and they are recalled. So maybe I should redefine my question: Do spiritual or heavenly Angels recall some natural concepts constantly and often because they like to encompass those things in their hobbies? For example, let’s bring back our fellow cartoon/comic artist who named his town “Beautycity”(-> translate this into heavenly language in your imagination😅) but his next town could be called “Beautina”(-> same thing), which is put together with a ‘real’ word (beauty) and an ending (-ina), which he just sort of imagined or invented. XD
Hi Anton,
There’s no reason artwork, comics, and so on cannot appear in heaven just as they do on earth. People have eyes there to see with, and hands to draw with. There is paper and ink, and now, I’m sure, computers and screens. Whatever people can draw here, they can draw there. And as I suggested before, I believe they can do even more, creating what we would call full holographic projections of the characters and scenery. It’s not necessary to be thinking materialistically to do all this. The spiritual world is not an empty place. It is full of everything we have here on earth, and millions of things that we don’t have here.
Hi Lee, this interpretation, I got while reading the last part of Heaven and Hell §33
“The deeper levels are actually opened by our acceptance of divine good and devine true gifts. […] People who live good moral lives, though, and believe in the Divine with no particular interest in learning, are in the outermost or first Heaven.”
Swedenborg also talked about the Natural Angels having direct perceptions of earthly concepts, but I wasn’t able to find that number. I hope that helps you for understanding my question. Kind regards
Oh, and also, I’ve seen a YouTube-Short by Off The Left Eye earlier today, that confused me:
Curtis Childs talks about, that Angels couldn’t live without humans. But what if the humans on earth one day are no more? As wee know, one day, the earth will be swallowed up by the sun. Or do other planets also count, or is it not bound to any physical time?
As I said, I’m quite confused.😅
Hi Anton,
Swedenborg, of course, lived in a time when the science of cosmology was in its infancy. He believed that the earth would continue to exist forever, and would never cease to produce new generations of people, animals, and so on. From his perspective, the statement that heaven cannot exist without earth seemed perfectly plausible and reasonable.
Today, it’s a head-scratcher. Even if we take into account Swedenborg’s statement that if a particular planet were to cease to have people on it, the angels that came from that planet would be connected to the people living on a different planet, that only kicks the can down the road. Based on current cosmology, not only will our planet cease to be able to support life somewhere between half a billion and a billion years from now (some say sooner), but eventually the entire universe will become so thin and dark that it can no longer support life anywhere.
Of course, our current cosmology could turn out to be wrong. We’ve had to modify previous ideas of how things work, and we’ll certainly have to modify our scientific understanding of the universe more in the future. But as of now, most scientists in this field do believe that the universe will eventually end in heat death (meaning death by lack of heat), and will no longer be able to support life. Even if this happens trillions and quadrillions of years in the future, that is still nothing compared to the eternity that Swedenborg (and others) say we will live in heaven for.
However, I also don’t think Swedenborg was the last word on every subject he talked about. Some things he said have turned out to be incorrect. For example, that every planet and moon is inhabited. We now know for a fact that this is not true. In fact, so far, it looks like inhabited worlds are probably quite rare in the universe. And in scientific terms, “inhabited” doesn’t mean “having intelligent and/or humanoid life walking around on it.” It means having any sort of life at all, even if it’s only single-celled organisms.
So besides our current science being mistaken, the other possibility is that Swedenborg was mistaken. Maybe the reality is that heaven and earth are tied together as long as earth exists, but after that, heaven can go independent. Perhaps it’s like raising a child. Children need their parents for eighteen or twenty years, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter, but after that they can go out on their own. They may or may not still have a relationship with their parents. Many people do, but some people don’t. Either way, they can get along in this world just fine.
Perhaps as long as this earth is feeding our planet’s region in heaven with new people, the bond is indissoluble. But once this earth ceases to produce new people (and if we’ve become multiplanetary, the galaxy stops producing people) our heaven is “complete,” and doesn’t need its relationship with the physical planet anymore.
Or perhaps there’s something God knows and we don’t. None of this will be a surprise to God, who is present in all time and space without being subject to them or limited by them. If the universe will end in heat death, God sees that just as much as God sees what you and I are doing right now. And I’m sure God has it all figured out.
Meanwhile, we have a very long time before any of this will happen. Unless, of course we nuke ourselves to oblivion before we become multiplanetary. And then I pity the poor planet that has to take on our region of the spiritual world. 😉
And meanwhile, I don’t figure it’s my job to have an answer to every single question. In spirit as in science, unanswered questions are what goad us on to search more carefully and think more deeply.
Hi Lee,
a quantumphysicsist who claims to have had astral visits since his childhood is Tom Campbell. You may or may not already have heard of him. I looked over your conversation with Sam, where he also talked about him, but to make it short, he backs his pretty New-Age-like understandings with his scientific studies. But I got your message from last time, so I just wanted to point that out and not start a discussion over the exact same things from last time.😅
Also, I am reading your new post adressing my question.👍
A thing that want to start a discussion about, however (or, at least, ask you something about) is a section of Jurgen Ziewe’s video ‘Vistas of infinity’. He seems to talk about things he could see while meditating and opening to ‘higher states of consciousness’. I just wanted you to leave your thoughts about it, because I’m pretty irritated about this. Like, why would something like that appear or what is the meaning behind it, why would seeing these things be so important to him?
The section I mean is 15:26 to roughly 17:26. So it’s not all that long.
Maybe this might be familiar to you as I already sent you this video once and you’ve watched it already. That time it was because all these scenes look pretty strange and not like anything Swedenborg talked about. The landscapes, scenes, etc. you said are appearing more out of imagination and meditation in the avatar than actually being in Heaven.
So…yeah, still this video’s kind of being a thorn in my side…
Best regards, anyhow.😄
Hi Anton,
Right. Not all New Agers don’t know what they’re talking about when it comes to quantum mechanics! 😀
About that section of the video, I actually agree with most of it. But I don’t know why he singles out sound as “the primordial element of creation.” He moves on to talk about sound and thought forms. There, he mentions “shape, colour, sound, and motion.” I don’t see why sound would be the basic element of thought forms. If anything, vision is more prominent in thought forms than sound. So that part of what he says doesn’t make sense to me.
As for the statement that “every thought has shape, colour, sound, and motion,” Swedenborg says the same thing in different words. He says that thoughts are not mere abstractions, but are real entities in the spiritual world, and that they do express themselves in landscapes, plant and animal life, architecture, towns and cities, and so on, not to mention in less solid forms, such as rainbows. For example, when he explains the meaning of the New Jerusalem, he says that the city is an image of the doctrines of the new church (or spiritual community) that is about to descend onto earth from heaven. The streets are ideas, and their being made of gold means that they are all based on love.
As for the imagery in the video looking unlike anything Swedenborg describes:
First, Swedenborg was much more of a writer than an artist, so he didn’t give us any artistic renditions of his experiences of heaven. The possible exception is in the artistic decorations in his published works, some of which he may have drawn himself. But they are very stylized, and are clearly not intended to be literal depictions of any of his experiences. However, he does give us some descriptions that suggest that there are areas of the spiritual world that may look similar to some of Ziewe’s depictions. For example:
You ran read those descriptions starting at Secrets of Heaven #1624. Much of what he describes would be perfectly at home in one of Ziewe’s illustrations.
When you linked that video for me previously and I watched it, I had no problem at all with the artwork and depictions. Many of them that depicted scenery reminded me of things Swedenborg described in heaven or in hell. Others that were more abstract seemed to evoke various thoughts, emotions, and experiences, all of which are spiritual things.
Beyond that, Swedenborg and Ziewe are two different people. We shouldn’t expect them to see all the same things in the spiritual world. The spiritual world is a vast realm. It really should be translated “the spiritual universe.” The word “world” is nowhere near big enough. Different people will see different parts of it, based on their own particular character.
Even in the nearly three decades that Swedenborg spent in the spiritual world, he could only visit relatively few places there. He did get an overall picture of heaven, such that it’s unlikely that there would be something that just doesn’t fit into his picture of heaven at all. And he did visit enough different places there to get a pretty good idea of the variety that exists there. But it would simply not be possible for him or anyone else to visit every single place in the spiritual world, any more than anyone here on earth could visit every single part of the earth. There’s just too much of it.
Like travelers here on earth, each person will have different, if overlapping, experiences, because no two people will visit the exact same places, and even if they did, they would see them at different times, under different circumstances.
In short, it’s not a problem that Swedenborg and Ziewe saw different things in the spiritual realm. But really, there is a lot of overlap in what the two of them saw there.
Hi Lee,
the thing I wanted to adress more, I realized, you already gave an answer to, in my huge comment.😅
Because some of these scenes seem kind of abstract and stuff.
On you first series of questions:
I would say that Ziewe and other “astral travelers” are seeing either actual landscapes in the spiritual world or what we would today call virtual landscapes, but also in the spiritual world. They are seeing, hearing, and otherwise sensing these things with their spiritual senses, which are the senses of their spiritual body, not with their physical senses.
Even actual landscapes in the spiritual world are precise reflections of the thoughts and feelings of the angels or spirits in the area. They are stable to the extent that those thoughts and feelings are stable, and ever-changing in the same way that people’s thoughts and feelings are ever-changing.
Given that this is the case even for the regular landscapes of the spiritual world, there is no limitation on the virtual landscapes that we could travel through there. They would be subject only to the limits of our imagination. Even Swedenborg, as I believe you once mentioned, spoke of a “rainbow heaven,” where everything was filled with rainbows.
I say “virtual landscapes” because these would be landscapes that people don’t actually live in, but that are generated by the travelings of our own mind. They may or may not correspond to inhabited areas of the spiritual world. An inhabited place would be what I’m calling an “actual landscape” in the spiritual world.
Swedenborg did say that the portion of the spiritual world that is inhabited is infinitesimally small compared to the vast uninhabited areas. Perhaps Ziewe and his fellow astral travelers are touring some of the uninhabited areas of the spiritual world that simply don’t yet have people to fill them and bring them alive.
However, these are still spiritual landscapes, being experienced with their spiritual senses. If Ziewe or any other astral travelers think that they are in any way having a direct experience of the mind of God, they are mistaken. God is on the divine level, and is entirely beyond our capacities, which are finite. The finite can never attain to the infinite. But the infinite can reach out to the finite, and make him/herself known to the finite.
However, so far in the videos you’ve linked for me that I’ve watched, I haven’t noticed Ziewe talking about God at all. So far, then, it doesn’t seem as if he’s claiming to be experiencing the mind of God.
Would you give the same answer now again? (Sure you would.😁)
In my typical fashion: Another point:
Genetics. Biologists claim, that our whole potencial is written in our DNA. There’s stuff you’d expect, like for example when do you get cancer, which is your eyecolor, under which circumstances will you get diabetes? But also, which potential you have and even which music-taste. Your thoughts on that? Because, sure, if we are choosing to act through selfishness or goodness is not written down in our DNA. But somehow this seems to be where our preferences and talents may be written down. I read your post: “It’s unfair that some of us are beautiful and others only average” (Not quoted title) Do the same laws come into action here, too?
Because it seems weird to say, that I only like football and Beethoven, because my genes say so…always seemed kind of like a spiritual thing for me…
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
Yes, I’d give the same answer. 😀 I might quibble a bit with myself about Ziewe and friends visiting uninhabited areas of the spiritual world, though. My sense is that areas of the spiritual world are opened and populated with objects and scenery only in response to people who live there. Uninhabited areas would be more potential than actual. The counter-argument to that is that God is everywhere, and could hold areas of the spiritual world in existence even if no one lived in them. So it’s an interesting question. Perhaps going into a mental state like that of people who would live in those uninhabited areas if they existed would be enough to allow an experience of those areas. Beyond that, many people enjoy visiting vast open spaces where no one lives. I presume these exist in the spiritual world just as they do in the material world. Once again, it’s an interesting question.
About DNA, perhaps our whole potential is there, but our actual life involves not just heredity, but also environment, not to mention our freely made choices. I generally think that our DNA (but really, our spiritual DNA) determines our basic character type as a person, but there are countless possible variations on it, only one of which will unfold as the person we become, based on the external circumstances of our life and even more on the choices we make within those external circumstances.
Even among materialists there is a great debate on nature vs. nurture, or heredity vs. environment. And from my perspective, it’s sufficiently clear that neither one is all-in-all. What exists in the biological realm is an interplay between the two. And in the human realm, free will is a third factor that has a greater influence on exactly who we will become to eternity than either heredity or environment.
PS: I imagine real, non-imaginal (nice😄) landscapes to be more like the ones shown in one of his latest videos.
He made all of them with computer graphical programming (surely not the right term) and of course, over the years it got better and more realistic.
Also, he even says it himself in the video, I sent you before, when it comes to these sort of looking-outta-place-like landscapes: ‘Everything imagined is reality’.
So, these are not the ones you would Actually see in your day-to-day life in Heaven, you know what I mean?😀
Also, do you understand these ‘super dimesions’ he talkes about, also in the other video? Could he access those through meditation? I guess so, but how come? Ans where would they have their place in Swedenborg’s experiences?
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
What’s presented in this video is very similar to what Swedenborg describes. With just a few tweaks in language and approach, it could have been produced by a 21st century Swedenborg. Most of the scenes in this video certainly could be a part of some people’s everyday life in heaven. He even speaks, early in the video, of people living an active life of commerce in the spiritual world. Swedenborg would describe it as a life of useful service to others. And as for it being so similar that many people don’t even realize they’ve died, Swedenborg says the exact same thing.
It has become standard among New Age to speak of different dimensions. Swedenborg didn’t use that term. But what he called “distinct levels” (or “discrete degrees” in the older translations) are probably the same thing. They’re not really “dimensions” as that word is usually used, suggesting that they’re just different ways of extending material or spiritual reality. Rather, they are higher and lower levels of reality, one above the other, or one within the other. God forms the highest or inmost levels. Then there are various levels of spiritual reality. And below or outside of these there are various levels of physical reality.
Hi Lee,
to quote Curtis Childs: “Never underastimate, how terryfying a concept can feel to someone!”
For instance, I love music! And I was thinking about the reality, that there’s a limited number of notes, and with that, there’s a finite number of melodies, and with that there’s a finite number of songs! And that idea, for me, is terryfying! The point of this comment is not to ask you, whether this is true or wrong, but to ask you about your opinion on the following:
Take the Eurovision Song Contest, as an example. I love this concept with different countries choosing their entry to the contest and then participating for the win, ultimately. And every year, there are new songs from eacg country, and while there are patterns visible in the genres, for example that Finland often chooses rock music, every year, there’s a new song and it feels fresh and that’s what makes it enjoyable to listen to, but if this would go on, let’s say, FOREVER, then ultimately after quadrillions of contest, there wouldn’t be any new songs to be written. Hpow could we solve this problem? Maybe forget about songs? I have no idea! Or is there not the importance of a song to be “new”, because there’s no “time” but only changes of state, and in that sence, the song will feel original for the eternity to come?
Hop you can understsmd what I’m meaning😅 and solve this conundrum.
Kind wishes
Hi Anton,
Never fear! We will never run out of new songs.
Music isn’t just a collection of notes strung along one after another. Even if it were, there are enough notes in the European standard heptatonic scale over several octaves commonly used in music to allow for almost limitless variety. Add in chords and harmony, and that variety goes up several orders of magnitude. Now introduce rhythm, syncopation, tone, volume, style, and many more elements of music that musicologists could list, and there really is no limit to the number of different songs and types of music that are possible. Consider that most of today’s genres of music didn’t even exist a couple of centuries ago, and you get the idea.
The spoken and written word are especially a way to communicate ideas. Music adds the element of emotion in a way that the written word just can’t. As long as we humans keep having new thoughts and feelings, there will always be new things to write, and new music to play, sing, and listen to.
Thanks Lee, for your answer.
For Ziewe and Sundberg it was actually the case, that they already had past-life-rememberings in child-age and forgot it, only to remember it again in an OBE.
-BUT- I wouldn’t say that Ziewe can’t think spiritually, because, as I mentioned, he says that he’s been enlightened and had enter cosmic consciousness. So, I think, he would’ve been free to any belief. But my theory from a Swedenborgian Perspective is that by believing in reincarnation, he could help the greater good, by sharing his experiences via youtube.
Also, which I think is pretty strange is that his mother, who didn’t believe in anything other than atheism while still being here on earth said to him once, that he has to stop viewing her as his mother, cause in their next life she might be his sister or even brother. Does she say this too, to strengthen his hindu view?
Kind regards😀
Hi Anton,
People thinking that they are spiritual doesn’t necessarily mean they are spiritual. Even having spiritual experiences doesn’t make a person spiritual. There are hordes of physical-minded spirits in the spiritual world. Being in or visiting the the spiritual world does not change whether or not a person is spiritual in outlook and life.
Ditto for people saying they are enlightened vs. actually being enlightened. There are many, many people who think they are the most enlightened people in the universe who are actually not enlightened at all. They just have a big ego characterized by enormous pride in their own intelligence. That’s not enlightenment. It’s hubris.
I can’t comment on the people you mention because I don’t know anything about them. I’ve heard the name Jurgen Ziewe before, but that’s about it. So I can’t say whether or not they have any genuine enlightenment or spirituality.
What I can say is that reincarnation is a physical-minded belief. It is quite literally the belief that we return to the physical world, and a new physical body, each time we die. How could anything be more physical-minded than that? It has nothing to do with spiritual enlightenment, except that the idea is that once people are enlightened they don’t have to reincarnate anymore.
But people’s definition of “enlightenment” is commonly rather self-absorbed. They think that having high-level “spiritual” knowledge makes them enlightened. But that is not what makes a person enlightened. What makes a person enlightened is using the knowledge he or she has to love other people through everyday acts of kindness and service to them out of concern for their well-being—especially for their eternal well-being. Living the truth we know in a life of kindness and service is true wisdom. Just knowing lots of high-level truth is mere knowledge. It doesn’t mean anything if it isn’t lived.
The idea that “enlightenment” makes us special, and frees us from the cycle of reincarnation, is the Eastern version of the Western Christian dogma of justification by faith alone. It’s the idea that our superior knowledge makes us special, and “saved” or “freed from the cycle of karma” or whatever you want to call it.
When people arrive in the afterlife, no one asks them how enlightened they were, or how many things they knew. They ask them how they treated their fellow human beings. That is the measure not just enlightenment, but of spiritual love and eternal life.
Well, actually, when Ziewe is talking about enlightenenment he means this, as followed:
He was meditating almost his entire life.
He often had glimpses of a state which is being connected to absolutly everything. And this state, je says, he reached in 2013 in an intense meditation and reached a state in which there was only one consciousness. Or aomerhing like that. He fehlt every suffering of every living organism and the only way to make it even was by experiencing every Joy of every living organism, he felt, in his core, connected to atoms, cells, plants, animals, humans, volcanoes, stars, to everything.
Did he just connect to the core of life? And if it’s just, that he us now wiser and The Lord will teach him the truth in the afterlife, because I consider this experience spiritual.😅
Good Friday!😄
Hi Anton,
I don’t doubt that Ziewe had these experiences. But honestly, I’m not particularly impressed by them. Thousands of gurus report the same thing. Not all of them are good people. Rajneesh had all these experiences of enlightenment. But he was a despicable human being who piled up 93 Rolls Royces for himself while his followers labored in voluntary poverty. And that’s by far not the worst thing he did.
Decades ago I read the autobiography of one of these “enlightened” gurus who described all his fantastical spiritual experiences and abilities. The whole book was dripping with pride and ego. I borrowed the book from a friend whose family had fled this guru’s ashram, along with most of the rest of its residents, when the guru became so full of himself, and began acting so badly, that most of his followers could no longer stand living there. Of course, sleeping with their attractive followers while preaching asceticism to everyone else is standard practice for these “enlightened” gurus.
Back in the 1960s millions of people had experiences of “enlightenment” through ingesting LSD, mushrooms, and other hallucinogenic substances. Did it make them into better people? Apparently not. Many of those people are now running the world, and I don’t see that they’re doing any better job of it than their “unenlightened” parents did.
Jesus addressed this phenomenon many centuries ago when he said:
Any Tom, Dick, or Harry can have an experience of enlightenment. Tomorrow you or I could take a hit of LSD and see amazing things. Would that make us a better person? Probably not. The human mind has the ability to reach all sorts of heights of intellectual understanding and experience. But it is not our intellect or our understanding that makes us who we are. It is our heart, and our actions from the heart, that make us who we are. Regardless of any heights of enlightened understanding and experience we may reach, we will always fall back to the level of our heart, meaning what we love and what motivates us.
Knowing that Ziewe has had these experiences doesn’t tell me anything about his character. I would have to see his fruits, meaning his actions, to know if he is merely “enlightened”—meaning he knows a lot of things—or if he is truly a wise person—meaning he lives a life of love, kindness, and service to his fellow human beings based on his knowledge and experience.
By their fruits you will know them.
I don’t actually think, Ziewe is as an ignorant person as Osho.
Sure, I don’t know him in person but he says that he grew so much into this stuff, that he actually can’t identify with “Jurgen Ziewe” anymore, because he feels so much unity between everything. And the fruits, that he made are spiritual people who watch his videos.
I don’t consider him a “bad” person, from what I heard and saw.
If course, many gurus and hindu teachers such as Osho, Gandhi, for example, were pretty nasty people, but if you’re willing to inform yourself of Ziewe’s “enlightenenment” and habe got 10 minutes of free time, maybe this video can clear up your view on my concernment, that just so happened to have been uploaded a few hours earlier.😅
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
It’s a nice video.
I also don’t consider Ziewe to be a bad person. What I’m saying is that based on his reported experience of being enlightened, I can’t tell whether he’s good or bad. Even bad people are capable of such experiences. Rajneesh was not an ignorant person. He was quite intelligent and aware. And he had many spiritual experiences. Ditto for the guru whose autobiography I read decades ago. Whatever else may be said about him, the guy was not stupid, and he had certainly had many spiritual experiences.
It is not our knowledge or our understanding or our enlightenment or our experiences that make us a good or bad person. It’s what’s in our heart, not what’s in our head and in our memory, that makes us a good or bad person. I have seen something of Ziewe’s head. I haven’t seen what’s in his heart. I don’t know anything about what he does day to day. I therefore have no information or opinion about whether he’s a good or bad person.
Not that it’s my job to decide that anyway.
So, I’m pretty sorry to ask this question, as it’s confusing, but I hope, it’s less confusing to you:
You said, that people/spirits who had false beliefs in the world, will remain at this belief, as they’ll be chaperoned and will live with people/spirits who have the same belief as they have.
Now, I’m very hesitent asking this question, because I’m afraid, you may have no answer to it. But here we go:
Phew! “Then, does Swedenborg know if the spirits he talked to said the truth?” I think, that this would be crucial understanding Swedenborg’s teachings. I thought to myself the most plausible idea is, that the Lord enlightened him in this way. (I believe, that there are many different types of enlightenenment)
But what do you think? Does Swedenborg adress this? Are every things that The Lord told him true?
I think, even in while writing this comment I possibly understood more,😅 but maybe you can explain me my misconceptions.🙂
Kind wishes!
Hi Anton,
First, it’s important to understand that Swedenborg did not get his teachings or his Bible interpretations from angels or spirits, but from the Lord, as he himself said:
It is true that Swedenborg published many accounts of his conversations with angels and his debates with devils. But these are simply illustrations of his time and experiences in the spiritual world. They are not the source of the teachings found in his theological writings.
In short, the common notion that Swedenborg’s teachings came from spirits is false.
By the same token, Swedenborg could tell if what he was being told by spirits was true or false precisely because he was being taught and instructed by the Lord. If something that a spirit said conflicted with or contradicted something that the Lord had taught him, then he knew it was false.
Beyond that, the very light of heaven in which Swedenborg lived when he visited the spiritual world distinguished truth from falsity for him. That’s because the light of heaven is truth. Even when he visited hellish communities, he would sometimes see light coming down from heaven to show the real nature of the people and landscape there. In fact, that’s one of the reasons evil spirits in hell hate the light of heaven: because it shatters their grandiose illusions about themselves and shows them for the miserable wretches they really are.
Of course, it’s possible that Swedenborg himself was living in a giant illusion. That’s what many of his detractors claim. On that, you’ll just have to make up your own mind. For my part, I have not encountered any other writer who describes so many things so accurately as Swedenborg does. For your part, you’ll have to decide whether he was a deluded and delusional madman as his opponents claim, or whether the things he writes make sense and accord with reality as you experience it.
For my longer take on Swedenborg, his spiritual experiences, and his writings, please see:
Do the Teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg take Precedence over the Bible?
No, no, I now believe, it’s the ultimate truth. It makes sense and has so many similarities with experiences from people who disagree with on a lot of issues, that it even starts to confirm, what Swedenborg’s saying!
Thank you so much for our conversation, Lee!
Hi Anton,
You are most welcome.
Hello Lee,
thank you so much for your help and willing to spend some time to watch the videos, that make me feel confused and uncomfortable.
I’ve selected two videos, the first is an hour long and in it, Ziewe talks about the “higher states of consciousness”.
The second is half an hour long and in it, he talks about food in the afterlife and the possibility to progress from the “lower astral levels” (hellish states) into higher, heavenly ones. (Which two aren’t as interesting for me as the last one) And reincarnation.
I’m not rushing you, since espacially the first one is pretty long, but I’d be happy to hear your first thoughts soon!😊
I hope, you understand him and can explain to me some of it!😀
Kind wishes and Great Friday🙂
Hi Anton,
I watched the videos. If you could say what it is about them that makes you feel confused and uncomfortable, that would be helpful. Then perhaps I could respond more specifically.
Meanwhile, I do have some general reactions.
First, much of what Ziewe says does agree with Swedenborg’s experience of the afterlife. For example people eating food there, but it is more than food because it is also an embodiment of love. He also says that people commonly continue in their occupations, and that if they are doing it to serve people, their life gets better.
In general, he talks about non-physical reality being greater than physical reality, which is very true. He describes various levels or realms that people live in, some of them dark and shabby, and others light and beautiful. And that in some parts of it, people hardly realize that they have died because it is so much the same as life here on earth. All of these things, and many more, entirely agree with Swedenborg’s description of the afterlife.
I noticed that in the first video he mentioned having found out about Swedenborg, and said a few words about Swedenborg—specifically, that Swedenborg saw angels as people who had moved on to higher levels.
For the most part, what Ziewe speaks of as the “astral body” and the “astral levels” are the same thing Swedenborg refers to as the spiritual body and the spiritual world.
Having watched a couple of his videos, then, I would definitely modify my earlier statement. Ziewe has experienced the spiritual world in some form or fashion. But I still think his belief in reincarnation represents a difficulty in letting go of materialistic ideas.
Also, in the entirety of the two videos he mentions God only once, and that is in the context of an experience of fear that if he continued in the experience he was having, and stepped over a line, he would be swallowed up in God and destroyed.
God does not seem to be a significant part of Ziewe’s experience and belief. And in connection with his visit to the Christian monastery, he speaks of himself as being non-religious. I would therefore now say that Ziewe’s experience seems to be limited to the physical and spiritual realms, and does not extend to any knowledge of or relationship with God. Of course, this is based entirely on three of his videos (including the one you linked earlier). Perhaps in other videos or in his books he does talk about God. But so far, God doesn’t seem to be a significant part of his experience and belief.
In place of God, Ziewe seems to believe in “consciousness” as the primary reality of existence. He even uses the term “primary consciousness.” And he speaks of consciousness as something that didn’t come from anywhere, but just is, as far as he knows. This is very similar to how theists speak about God. From this much I would conclude that Ziewe believes that “consciousness,” or spiritual awareness, is the central reality of the universe. His seems to be a non-theistic belief and experience.
Swedenborg’s belief and experience, of course, was highly God-centered. It centered on an intensely human God who is not merely “consciousness,” but is infinite human love, wisdom, and power—very much personal and relational. This appears to be a major difference between Swedenborg and Ziewe.
The other major difference I see is their respective beliefs about the purpose of our existence here on earth.
For Ziewe, we come from a pre-existing consciousness that desires to gain new experiences that can be gained only in the physical body living in the physical universe. This is all part of “primary consciousness” gaining more and more experience of a multitude of different states of being. Consciousness is continually adding to its experience by sending souls out into the material realm and the various astral realms, which then return to the source enriched with new experiences.
I will note also that contrary to what I conjectured earlier, Ziewe does not believe that we lose our individuality when we return back to the highest planes of existence or consciousness. In fact, he says something quite similar to what Swedenborg says about this: that we actually gain an enhanced sense of individuality. What we lose is our “ego-identifications.”
This last would tie in to Swedenborg’s teachings about love of self and love of the world when they are primary in our life—something we must let go of in the process of regeneration. And yet, what we have to let go of is putting them first. When they are in their proper place, which is serving the higher levels of love (love of the Lord and love of the neighbor), they are good and positive loves.
But back to our purpose here on earth, Swedenborg sees it quite differently from Ziewe—though even here there are points of agreement. For Swedenborg, our life on earth in relation to our eternal life in the spiritual world is analogous to our time in the womb in relation to our earthly lifetime. Its purpose is not to “gain experiences,” but to develop into the person we will be once born into the world, or reborn into the spiritual world.
This is why in Swedenborg’s system, there is no need to go back and do it over again. Once we have spent nine months in our mother’s womb, there is no need for us to go back and do it again. We have already accomplished what needs to be accomplished in the womb. Similarly, once we have lived a life in our physical body in the material world, there is no need to go back and do it again. We have already accomplished what needs to be accomplished in our material-world body and experience. That is to become first a human being, and then an angel (or if we make the opposite choice, an evil spirit) that can live independently, or better, interdependently, first in the material world and then in the spiritual world.
The main point of agreement here is that in Swedenborg’s system, as in Ziewe’s, the life, experience, and resulting character of each person does add to the richness of heaven. New human beings and new angels do add new experiences, knowledge, and wisdom to humanity as a whole, and to heaven as a whole. It’s just that for Swedenborg that’s a secondary purpose, whereas the primary purpose is to create new human beings who can live in loving and harmonious relationship with one another and with God.
In Ziewe’s system, which draws heavily on Eastern religion, the experiences are new, but the souls are not. In Swedenborg’s system, which draws heavily on Western religion—specifically, Christianity—both the souls and their experiences are new with every birth, and with every rebirth.
Continually recycling them back into the world would actually detract from God’s goal for the universe. It would be like manufacturing cars, driving them for a while, sending them to the crusher, and then making replacement cars out of them. The total number of cars would either increase much more slowly, or it would not increase at all if there are only a certain number of cars to start with, and they just keep getting recycled into new cars.
Though that’s a rather crude and materialistic analogy, the main point is that in Swedenborg’s system, every new birth represents a brand new human being and a brand new potential angel to add to the richness of heaven. There is not a fixed pie that just keeps getting sliced up in different ways. Rather, the angelic community is continually growing.
Personally, I find this to be a much greater and more inspiring view of Creation than the idea that something that already existed is just being continually churned through various experiences.
For God, having new experiences is not necessary. God already has all experience, of everything that we think of as spread out in time and space, and in the spiritual analogs of time and space. All of those experiences are simply expressions of different aspects of what already exists in God, or else distortions of different aspects of what exists in God (which is the origin of evil).
For God, what’s “new” is not the experiences, but being able to share them with beings distinct from and other than God. This is an expression of the nature of love, which is to give to others what belongs to oneself, and to feel their joy as joy in oneself. Without other beings in the universe who are not God, God would have no one to love, and no one to be in relationship with.
In Swedenborg’s system, the purpose of the universe is not experience, but relationship.
I do think Ziewe is moving in that direction with his realization along the way (if I am hearing him correctly) that the greatest element of existence is love. Experience is a mental and intellectual thing. Love is a relational and heart-centered thing. Loving relationship is far greater and deeper than experience, no matter how rich and varied our collective experiences may be.
To sum up, I do think that Ziewe has a considerable amount of valid experience of the spiritual realms of existence. But I don’t think he has yet encountered God in any real and personal way. His system is probably about as far as a person can get while having room only for the material and the spiritual, but not for God.
These are my thoughts and reactions to watching these two videos, and the earlier one as well. I hope you will find it helpful. Please do let me know if there is something more specific, or different, that makes you feel confused and uncomfortable about Ziewe’s experiences and views.
Hello Lee,
what’s mking me feel uncomfortable, in the first place, is the idea of reincarnation. Now you might think: “Well, I’m telling you Swedenborg’s view, which you already accepted in many ways, that does NOT support the idea and concept of reincarnation.” But for me, unfortunately, it’s easier to believe in what’s more plausible, than what I want to believe.
What’s confusing me tho, is the idea that at some point, you lose the ego-identification. Swedenborg says that the ego goes dormant and when it pops up, it can cause problems, BUT through this process, you learn and progress deeper into the region of Heaven you inhabit. If you give up the ego, then this process seems to not work. I think, that the ego-identification is lost by living in the highest Heaven, but then how does the regeneration work there?
Sidenote: I also don’t feel comfortable about the idea of losing the ego-identification, but then maybe it’s because I’m I don’t (yet) feel like, I belong in the innermost Heaven.🙂
I will probably continue looking out for Ziewe-Videos for you to watch, that could be helpful for me, understanding and feeling comfortable.😄
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
About reincarnation, you’re just going to have to make up your mind one way or another. But to me, the idea that a person would get a memory wipe after each life, losing all the learning and experience that had come with that life, and would have to start all over, is extremely implausible. It makes no sense at all. What’s all that learning and experience about if you lose it all each time? It’s a complete waste of time.
On your other issue, Swedenborg doesn’t exactly say that ego goes dormant. Rather, he says that in the process of regeneration our earthly, selfish ego is replaced by a “heavenly ego,” which is a gift from the Lord, and which is our true self. In other words, we never do lose our ego-identity. What we lose is the selfishness and greed of our earthly ego (though even that is only pushed to the side, not wiped out completely), to be replaced by an ego that is motivated love for the Lord and love for the neighbor.
Part of the problem is that the word “ego” is a modern psychological term that does not completely match Swedenborg’s use of the Latin word proprium, or sense of self. It is a heavenly proprium that we receive as a replacement for our earthly and materialistic proprium, which is our naturally born selfish self.
Does that help?
Hi Anton,
About identity and being in the highest heaven, consider this statement by Swedenborg, which I think I quoted for you previously as well:
The highest angels in fact have the clearest sense of identity, because they are the angels that are most closely united to the Lord.
Hello Lee,
Yes, that does certainly help me!
Ziewe says that after losing the ego-identification, he also lost the complete sense of self and connecting to this “unity-consciousness”. Any extra points to it, from your side?
But back to reincarnation.
I already made up my mind many times about this topic and you making up your mind about Ziewe’s belief. You even said it already yourself: In Ziewe’s concept, the memory being wiped out is in total agreement with everything else of his philosophy. Of course, in Swedenborgianism, it’s just absolute nonsense.
By the way, did Swedenborg say, that if people have already existing beliefs, they will pretty surely have these beliefs confirmed by experience, in one of his books? I remember stumbling upon True Christianity §79 with some philosophers having their beliefs keeped through death into the afterlife and arguing in favor of their earthly philosophies. Now, this only confirms, that we can carry on with our already existing beliefs, but what about getting these beliefs confirmed by experience? In True Christianity §79, what’s happening, is actually the exact opposite😅, the Lord removed their loves to earthly things, and they in the first couple moments put beside their (previous) beliefs as “insane”.
So, yeah, how about it?😄
I now got another question, which I could put into the category “Divine Design”:
Ziewe talked about other and planets being very different from our planet, something that, of course Swedenborg doesn’t support, as he says that the other planets are very much like our earth, and the people living there, are humans, just like we are. And other dimensions with conpletely different lass of physics and so on, in this video:
By the way, you can also perhaps share your thoughts about Ziewe’s concept of states of consciousness.🙂
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
Losing our old self-centered sense of self can feel like losing ourselves altogether. But what’s really happening is that our thoughts are no longer centered in our self, which means that our thinking broadens out, and ultimately centers on God.
Perhaps for Ziewe, since God doesn’t seem to be an active part of his experience, when he moved beyond a self-centered ego there was nothing for his mind to focus on, so it just spread out into the vast environment and lost both its former boundaries of “mine vs. not mine” and any sense of being centered on anything at all. Just a conjecture.
For angels in the highest heaven, which is the highest “consciousness” any human can attain, there is a definite focus and center of their lives, which is the Lord, known outside of Christianity as God. No matter which way angels face, east is always in front of them, and God is visible as the sun of heaven in the east. This wouldn’t work in the fixed space of the physical world, but it is how things work in the spiritual world. The evil spirits in hell, by contrast, always face away from God, so that God is always behind them.
In general, Ziewe’s descriptions in the video of various planes of existence in the non-physical realms sounds very much like what Swedenborg describes, only seen with different eyes from a different perspective. In the spiritual world, our surroundings reflect our inner state. And our inner state can be anything from horrendously evil to tremendously loving and beautiful.
A distinct difference is that Swedenborg says that we form a particular character for ourselves during our lifetime on earth, and this character remains the same forever because it stems from and expresses the “ruling love” that we chose to put at the center of ourselves during our earthly lifetime. Ziewe apparently believes, in contrast, that hellish spiritual states are always temporary, and that all people eventually end out in the highest states of consciousness. This difference neatly fits in with a general difference between Christian and Eastern thought.
About whether people’s existing beliefs will be confirmed by experience once they have moved on to the spiritual world, this depends upon whether those beliefs are in full agreement with the person’s ruling love. People who have adopted various beliefs in the world because that’s what they were taught by their priests or ministers may or may not continue in those beliefs and have them confirmed by experience, depending upon whether those beliefs agree with their own loves and desires. Those who have a good heart but accepted false beliefs from their religious leaders will leave those false beliefs behind during the third stage after death, when they will be taught by angels before heading to their eternal homes in heaven.
However, people who have selfish and greedy hearts will cling closely to any and all beliefs that support and endorse their desires and behavior. It is true that they can temporarily have their minds lifted above the evil desires of their hearts, and see the truth in its own light. But because this conflicts with their ruling love, they soon drop back into the same false view of things that they held to before. Then everything they see will confirm those beliefs because their very eyesight, and their thinking mind, is distorted by the distortions in their heart.
This is the general picture that Swedenborg presents both in his descriptions of the spiritual world and in his stories from it. Offhand, I can’t think of a place where he explicitly says that people’s existing beliefs will be confirmed by their experience in the spiritual world. Perhaps he does. But what he does say supports that idea whether or not he says it explicitly.
Let me know if I’ve missed anything that you were particularly interested in.
Hi Lee,
Yes, I do have a particular under-topic I would like to adress a little bit more. And also an extra question.
In his spiritual experiences, Swedenborg reported many landscapes, that are very much like on our earth. He describes mountains, farmlands, meadows and animals and Birds, that we can also find on our earth. (All but unicorns😅)
But he also describes stuff, that’s not on our earth, such as the so-called rainbow Heaven with rainbow lights everywhere; in the sky there, the grass, even in the athmosphere there. He says, the rainbow Heaven IS actually a bigger rainbow, made out of an infinite number of smaller rainbows.
Ziewe however, describes many, many, environments, that look strange, in comparison to the landscapes here on earth and to those, that are described by Swedenborg.
If you want to have some explanations or images on these, I can’t describe them.😄 But Ziewe does, and even comes along with some pictures of them, which he showed in the details of the “higher states of consciousness”, in the later segments of his video “vistas of infinity”, which I already linked you in my last comment. I understood, that you already watched it, which, by the way, I really appreciate!🙂
My question is, if this IS, what Swedenborg referred to, as the rainbow Heaven, in which Angels with a particular mindset live. Or would you describe these experiences in a different way? Or did The Lord even just simulate this, because Ziewe expected something pretty “Out-there”…?
Because, do these kinds of “Nature” even have a correspondence in the world or are they a correspondence? I don’t think, they quite fit the Divine Design and even the other planets Swedenborg saw.
The other question is a little more complex; I’m also currently in a conversation with some members from Off The Left Eye and the Swedenborg Foundation, Chara Daum, Chelsea Odhner and Karin Childs.
Chelsea said, in one of their YT-videos on the OTLE-YT-channel, that in the afterlife, people can go into a, kind of, dream or “virtual reality” would be the best word(s) to describe it, although Ziewe also describes, that when people sleep in the afterlife, they’ll have a lucid dream, in which happens something kinda similar, but not what I’m trying to describe as followed, but Ziewe also describes it happening. And NOT in these dreams. Confused? Because I am!😅
Anyway, Swedenborg seems to describe a, sort of, virtual reality, in which people can do anything they want to.
You can leave a comment on this, but it’s not primary, the next one is;
Swedenborg says, that morning, noon, evening, etc. are experienced by spirits according to their state of mind. Although the night is the correspondence to no Love (the loves of people, who are in hell).
Now, will Angels be willing or even only able to experience the NIGHT in these virtual realities. As in Heaven, it’s for sure, that they won’t. Or will they will think in correspondences so much, that they are not even one second, feeling comfortable in the lightened-up streets in the darkness of the night?
This is all a lot to get through!😁
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
On your first series of questions:
First, it is good to know that the spiritual world is vast.
Only in the past few centuries have we realized just how vast the physical universe is. In comparison to Medieval times, when it was common to think of the universe as being about as big as the distance between the Earth and the Sun, we now know that our solar system is an infinitesimally small speck in a universe that is so large that the human mind cannot fully grasp it. At the speeds we are currently capable of traveling through space, even going to the nearest star would take us 6,000 years—which is about as long as fundamentalists Christians think the world has been in existence.
The same is true of the spiritual world, if not more so. Even in the twenty-seven years Swedenborg spent visiting the spiritual world, he could not possibly see more than a tiny fraction of the vast expanse of the spiritual world. He himself speaks of hundreds of thousands of inhabited regions in the spiritual world corresponding to inhabited planets on earth, and he saw only about a dozen of them. Even exploring all the communities of heaven, hell, and the world of spirits that came from our earth would take multiple lifetimes, just as here on earth it would not be humanly possible to visit every city, town, and village on earth within a human lifetime.
What am I getting at?
Just this: It should not be at all surprising that Ziewe saw different scenes in the spiritual world than Swedenborg did. Even on earth, no two world travelers have been to exactly the same places. This will be even more true of travelers in the spiritual world.
And second, it is good to know that in the spiritual world, the scenery we see has no independent or “objective” reality of its own. Rather, it is all an expression of the people and human communities in the area. That’s why there are resplendently beautiful scenes in heaven, and horribly dark and depressing scenes in hell. It is all a reflection of the particular people who live there.
Of course, it is perfectly possible to travel to areas of the spiritual world that don’t correspond to one’s own states of heart and mind. But this requires special preparation and even protection. The natural tendency is for people to visit places in the spiritual world that are similar to their own character and personality.
I did see all the imagery in the Ziewe video, and indeed, some of it did not look much like what Swedenborg describes seeing in the spiritual world. But Swedenborg and Ziewe are two different characters and personalities, from two different times and places. Swedenborg was thoroughly Western and Christian in his thinking, whereas Ziewe, though a Westerner, has clearly has been heavily influenced by Eastern thought. This in itself would likely result in the two of them seeing a different, though certainly overlapping, set of sceneries in the spiritual world.
Really, all this suggests to me is the great vastness and variety of the spiritual world—something Swedenborg himself commented upon many times.
Hi Anton,
On your other questions, my main response would be that people in the other world are exactly the same people as they are in the material world, except that they no longer have their physical body (but they have a nearly identical spiritual body), and any outward affectations that don’t match their real inner character are soon stripped away, so that they say and do exactly what they think and feel.
Since people are still people in the spiritual world, they will still have all the same types of experiences that they do in the material world, and more. Sleep? Yes. Dreams? Yes. Daydreaming? Yes, but even more vividly than here.
In today’s computer age it’s popular to talk about “virtual reality.” But the word that used to be used for this sort of thing in real life is “visions.” When people are seeing visions, they are not seeing what the physical or the spiritual world is really like in day-to-day life. It is more like being in a spiritual movie theater, where things can happen that can’t or don’t happen in ordinary life, and they all have some greater significance. Visions are just as possible in the spiritual world as they are in the material world. The entire vision that John describes in the book of Revelation took place in the spiritual world, but it was a vision, not something such as Swedenborg experienced walking around in the streets and paths of the spiritual world.
As far as lucid dreaming, that just means being aware that you are in a dream, so that you can decide what to do there, including things that you could never do in waking life, rather than just experiencing it without any control over its flow. I’ve had it happen to me a few times, and it can be a lot of fun!
About night, though angels don’t normally experience what we think of as night, but only sort of a twilight according to Swedenborg, I see no reason why they couldn’t experience night time in a vision or dream. After all, night has an archetypal spiritual significance. It could easily become a “character” in an angel’s vision or dream.
Hi Lee,
a little extra point, I would like to adress:
If we lose our self-centered ego and focus our life interely on God or do we still have hobbies and our own interests? Because, I think, it was right at the beginning of Married Love, where after a marriage ceremony in Heaven, Swedenborg vistited a village, in which people went after their work and when they were done (or they just needed some (spiritual) recreation,) they began to do hobbies. Trainspotting*, collecting things, I think, he even uses the word “tennis” in there, somewhere, but at least something with rackets and balls.😄
The people have centered their life on God, but they still have hobbies and interests. Will this stop, when we enter the highest Heaven and center our lives conpletely on The Lord and the neighbor?
PS: *: He, of course, didn’t talk about Trainspotting, as in his day, there weren’t any trains, yet. This is just my Hobby, which I would like to follow in Heaven.😊
Best wishes🙂
Hi Anton,
Focusing our life on the Lord does not mean withdrawing from the world and being “otherworldly” and “ethereal,” but keeping the Lord in our heart and mind while we are engaged in the world and its people and activities.
The idea that heaven is some sort of never-ending beatific vision in eternal rapturous praise and worship of God is based on a literal and materialistic reading of passages in the Bible that are meant to be interpreted symbolically and spiritually. How anyone could read the book of Revelation and not realize that it is a vision, not an actual description of everyday life in the spiritual world, is beyond me.
So yes, we can continue with our hobbies in heaven. And now that trains exist on earth, I presume they exist in heaven as well, so that you can continue with your trainspotting. As for tennis in heaven, I have just the article for you!
Is Heaven Physical? Can Angels Play Tennis?
And just for good measure, one other point, before you make your response:
My knowledge of Swedenborg heavily relies ok the Off The Left Eye-YT-channel. There, in the video on reincarnation, the Host, Curtis Childs, said something on the ideas of the “ego” or proprium,to say it better🙂, after reading
Heaven and Hell §158:
By . . . alternations of delight and discomfort, [angels’] perception of and sensitivity to what is good become more and more delicate. [The angels] have gone on to say that the Lord does not produce these changes of their states, since the Lord as the sun is always flowing in with warmth and light, that is, with love and wisdom. Rather, they themselves are the cause, since they love their sense of self and this is constantly misleading them. (Heaven and Hell §158)
“So, even Angels can have an ego, right? It doesn’t totally just get wiped away, but sometimes it pops up, and it can cause problems, so that they [the angels] cn go through a cycle to shed harmful things and personality traits, that aren’t real great, and that’s why they go through this cycle and remain to posess an own ego-identity.”
So, I understand that like nothing changing in our sense of self, but letting go of the negative aspects of the ego, but never losing it interely, as it is a tool to cycle ourselfs deeper into the region of Heaven, we inhabit.😄
Kinf regards
Hi Anton,
Nothing that has ever been a part of us is ever completely gone from our self and character. For one thing, it’s all still in our memory, which is the reservoir from which our current mind and personality draws in moving forward with its day to day activities and its development of new habits and skills. If we have ever been selfish (as we all have), that selfishness is still a part of us. It isn’t washed away so it vanishes. It is just pushed more and more to the periphery of our character as we focus more and more on loving the Lord and the neighbor.
If our memory were wiped away, and that part of our character were just gone, gone, gone, where would be the lessons we learned from the stupid and selfish things we’ve done in life? Some of our greatest learning and growth happens after some of our biggest, stupidest, and most selfish blunders! Thinking back on the stupid and destructive things we’ve done not only helps to keep us humble, but it reminds us of what we learned the hard way, and makes it much less likely that we’ll make the same big fat mistake all over again.
We do continue to have a certain affection for the selfish and materialistic parts of ourselves. After all, if they didn’t have some appeal to us, why would we ever engage in them in the first place? Even for angels, it is possible to lapse into those old desires, and it does happen from time to time. This results in the cycles in the lives of angels that Swedenborg talks about in Heaven and Hell #158.
What doesn’t happen to the angels in heaven is that they get sucked into those old selfish and greedy desires, and it consumes them and takes over their lives, as happens with many people here on earth. This cannot possibly happen, because at the time of death our ruling love is fired like a clay pot, and cannot change to eternity. Even if angels do sometimes dip into their dark side, it is only temporary, and it will be an occasion for learning and growth, and for pushing that dark side even more to the periphery. They will always return to their (good) ruling love, which is returning to the joy and satisfaction of their life.
As for ego, there are two kinds, according to Swedenborg: our natural or earthy ego, which loves self and the world most of all, and a heavenly ego, which loves God and the neighbor most of all, that the Lord replaces our earthly ego with during the course of our regeneration—if we choose to be spiritually born again and do the work of accomplishing it.
The actual Latin word Swedenborg uses is not ego, but proprium, which translators struggle to translate, but which means, basically, our sense of self or sense of identity. This can be either good or bad, depending on whether we are all about gaining power, wealth, and pleasures for ourselves or whether we are all about loving and serving God and the neighbor.
Hi Lee,
I’m sorry for my late responses, I’m currently on vacation and we don’t have WiFi here.
So, I’ve got a theory myself, already, and was very eager to hear what you think about the different landscapes and sceneries in the spiritual world.
But we’ll get to that later.
Ziewe describes a sort of “silent companion”, as he calls it. It’s a…”something” , he could feel the presence of, as soon as he came to rest. After his enlightenment-experience he felt, that he (re)merged with it, I don’t know actually how he describes it, but I would be curious about what you think of this.
And no, not as far as I know, has he ever talked God as something, that was a part of his experiences or beliefs. I think, what would take us further in explaining Ziewe by Swedenborg, are the conversations of Ziewe with another “astral traveller”, Mike Marable. He made a playlist of them which is called “conversations between astral travellers”. I have problems with sending you the link, but if you’re willing to spend another couple of minutes or hours😅 on these videos, that would really help me!🙂
There are a couple points on Ziewe’s concept of “consciousness-structure”, he makes in the first conversation, but first, I’ll let you think about whether you want to waste your time on it.😄
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
So . . . out with it! What’s your theory??? 😀
I presume that a “silent companion” would be an angel or spirit associated with Ziewe. We all have spirits with us all the time, but also one or two “guardian angels,” as they are popularly called, who have a special connection with or assignment to us.
If you want to link the first of those videos here, I’ll give it a watch whenever I have the time.
Hi Lee,
this is going to be a really HUGE comment, so here we go! 😀
first, I let you wait so long, here’s my theory about landscapes in the afterlife, that Ziewe describes and which, in comparison to earth and what Swedenborg describes, looks a bit out-of-place…:D
Swedenborg wrote, that “God is infinite. Or: “Without limits”, as creator, shaper and maker of the universe. He gave everything, physical and spiritual, a limit or a boundary, so that it could perform its task or function in a specific way. He did so, by means of the sun, that surrounds him, and which consists of the Divine Essence, that goes out as a sphere around him. In that sun, and from it, the first limitedness occurs. Things are increasingly limited, the closer they are, to the lowest level of nature in the world.”
So, this would mean, that by meditation, Ziewe, alongside many other people throughout history, opened himself to experiences that humans normally weren’t able to see, and even most spirits and Angels will never see, because he entered a closer connection with the Divine Essence(, even if it was by means of concentration and being aware, rather than serving a loving purpose…I think…what do you think about this? How did he do it(, in your eyes?) which made him see a kind of nature and other universes with their own laws of physics, biologic forms, etc., that he, and every other person normally couldn’t see.
Even in the Highest Heaven, the nature is (only) a remarkable or infinitely more beautiful variation of nature here on earth. These other “landscapes” (or whatever you want to call it) only exists in God’s imagination or as a “possibility”, if you like, since God is infinite! Or hey, maybe these things do exist on the physical realm, but maybe only as a placeholder, or once again: What do you think? 😀
In one of my last comments, I mentioned VR in the spiritual world, where people could enter an experience, they could never have in their “regular” heavenly lives, connected with the question, if they could experience night, although they clearly can’t in Heaven.
This, I believe now, wasn’t a very good way of putting it, because it got to you like: “Hey, you can put on these glasses and see something different in them, like a landscape!”, just like VR works here on earth. Rather, I realized, that Swedenborg uses completely different terms for this kind of thing and even goes into detail about it.
Angels and Spirits have a body that’s suited to their state of mind and their heart. This body is called spiritual body in general and when a people is risen up into Heaven, you can really say, they are now conscious in their “Heavenly body”, and if they are cassed down into hell there are in their “hellish body”. BUT there’s actually another body, apart from the spiritual bodies and the physical body, the so-called “thought body”, which travels not based on the true basis of where the heart is, because the spiritual body stays rooted to that place. Rather, Angels can appear to be somewhere by thought. So, there are two kinds of changes of location:
One (…) involves the fact, that all Angels and Spirits keep their same place in the universal human at all times, which is a visible manifestation. The other involves the fact that Spirits can appear in a place, when they’re not really there, which is an illusion. All Souls and Spirits whatsoever, from the beginning of creation appear in their position at all times and never change place except when conditions inside them change. As conditions inside them change, the relative location and distance alter too. I have learned, both by talking with Angels and by experience, that Spirits as Spirits are not in the place they appear to be, so far as the organic substances composing the (spiritual) bodies they have are concerned. They can be very far off and still appear in that place. {Secrets of Heaven §1376, 1377 & 1378}
So, in the spiritual world, we can (appear to) be anywhere, only our “avatar” or thought body has a full sense experience.
(Just as a sidenote: In another comment, you said, that Swedenborg noted that everything he learned about the things we’re talking about, he learned from the Lord. However, in many cases, like in the quote up here, he says, that he learned something from the Angels. Does that mean, that the Angels were, sort of, the intermediaries of the information that came from the Lord directly? Or did he “speak” to the Lord before/after his conversations with the Angels?
I also would like to note, that you mentioned, as well in the conversation with me, as with K, which I looked over, that Angels and Spirits can influence us by sending some kind of information directly into us or making some kind of film and showing it to us on some kind of canvas, if we’re conscious of our spiritual body and are among them in the Spiritual world. Now, they can also do it just like that, without us, and just watch the film for themselves, that’s kind of how films and “cinema in Heaven” works. But, as mentioned, it also can be by, sort of, “injecting” information into us. By conveying information this way, people, who still live in the world and get these films “injected” think, that they actually experienced this, or take it for something, that happened to someone else. This would also explain many people who claim, that they have experiences from being in a sort of, in-between-of-lives-state, after and before incarnations. One example of them is Christian Sundberg, who was also guest at Alex Ferrari’s podcast. He says, he experienced many such things. He said, he remembers, that there was a stage, at one point, where his soul wasn’t on earth yet, he hasn’t incarnated once. He was just walking along a and then he saw a person (or spirit), that had a kind of strange aura, for the place that he lived in. “He” meaning Christian Sundberg. He walked up to him and asked him about this. Then they talked together a little bit, until the person/spirit said, that he had incarnated on earth. And it was clearly visible, that this had affected him in a positive way. Sundberg noticed, that having led one (or multiple) live(s) on earth is very good for the soul’s development, so he said to himself: “I’m gonna go out there and lead a live on earth!” So, he tried to incarnate into a body and it didn’t work quite well. He had to lower his vibration-frequency and found himself in a growing embryo in a womb, but it was too cold and he still was feeling an intense vibration because of his drastic frequency change and so on, and just couldn’t stand this state and went back. One of the reasons, why he didn’t stay was also the anxiety about losing his memory and so he asked some people/spirits who regulated this process or helped souls to do it, (I don’t know which terms he actually used for that) if he could keep some of his memory. And they replied: “Yes, we can, but it would make the process a lot more difficult, because your soul can develop the best, when it’s on earth, if it doesn’t know about its live here.” “Okay, so just give me just a little, and I’ll be on my way.” “Okay.”, they replied and so he actually managed to land on earth. In his first four years on earth he said, he remembered his other live very vividly and also the process, that led him into this. But at some point, like it’s the case for many children, who have “past or other live experiences”, he lost that memory and lived his live just like nothing had happened. But at some point, I don’t know, how exactly, he stumbled across a video of Tom Campbell, a physicist, who has similar claims like Ziewe (and one you maybe also heard about before). He suggested him, in one of his videos, that he should close his eyes and feel, what he would be without ANY knowledge. Without ANY memories. And without ANY feelings. You guessed it: NOTHING. And with this kind of “resolution technique” helped him to have an “astral journey”. There, he explored the world and rapidly began to “remember” again, what happened before his birth.
I actually don’t know how much truth is behind that story, and if nearly none, where is the mechanism and how came this memory into being in your/Swedenborg’s opinion?
(Quick sidenote: Sundberg is still very big into this “I am nothing, I am just an illusion of a higher being”. Yes, despite all of this, he still believes in a god, he even sometimes uses that term, “god”.)
On to my next point/question(s);
Namely in his book “Other Planets” Emanuel Swedenborg talks about exo-terrestrials or aliens.
And I’m quite confused by the way he describes them. Now, Swedenborg is often referring to the human race as the Divine Design and in his theology, it would only make sense, that aliens are factually human, but I’ve heard dozens of people, for example near-death-experiencers, who claim to have seen other planets with aliens, that were blue, little, long-eared (or something, I don’t know :D) creatures, that many regular people think of, when they hear the word “aliens”. One of them was even referring to the fact, that “actually, something similar to Star Trek is really somewhere out there!”
I just kept this point a little shorter, any thoughts on that?
Next, I would like to adress an „influencer“, author and meditation trainer, whose beliefs also made me wonder, lately. „Highermind“, bourgeois name Andreas Schwarz, teaches many things from hindu and buddhist scripture and teachings, but there are two things, about which I myself couldn‘t yet find anything from Swedenborg, and my hope is, that possibly you could help:
The so-called „Akasha-Chronicle“ (maybe I adressed tthis one already before, I don‘t know. :D) and the, I couldn‘t find any proper translation, but litteraly translated it would mean something like, „Strengh-Animal“.
First things first, many people describe the „Akasha-Chronicle“ as some kind of out-of-this-world-consciousness and I think. That maybe God is constantly in a similar state. I think Carl Gustav Jung gives a good description, when he calls it the „collective unconcsious“. Long story short, it‘s a kind of, database where every „data“ is stored. Knowledge from the past, present and future. People, who are in meditation and described it say, they could re-live scenes from history or their own past, could see the scoresheet of the next game of their favourite baseball-team and could look into their own future, yet they only could get a glimpse of that and many of them report, not having a very vivid experience, only many little pieces, which is why vistits of these chronicles often lead to missunderstandings, some little, some severe. But it irritates me, that a person that teaches others to be enlightened, tells people how to enter a database, what leads to them, knowing (or thinking), what they have to do, to be rich and succesful. (Also, I had a question about Higherminds understandings, in general, but I just simply forgot it…:D, so I guess you‘ll be hearing that name again some time in the future.)
The „Strengh-Animal“ is basically a particular animal species, that has certain things in common with you, mainly your character, and knowing, what animal‘s your „Strengh-Animal“ can help you regain trust in life and can bring you one step closer to enlightenment.
By the way, I just now was suddenly wondering, how would Swedenborg describe or understand the „enlightenment“ of the Buddha, Jürgen Ziewe and so many other people? Are there many enlightenments and this is the kind of, final state? (I‘m not gonna give too many possible answers, like I usually do, I‘ll just get to my next point! :D)
In Heaven, angels will have a lot of time! Time to help the „Heaven-Project“ :D, pursue their hobbies, like playing chess or basketball, or trainspotting :D, but will they remember all these trains they watched, the basketball games they played or will these memories get stored, and if they need or want them, they get kind of, recalled or do some of the memories even get forgotten?
The following question is probably the one on which I spent the most time thinking and not coming to a good answer :D. Angels communicate through a language, which comes as an inflow of God, and which they speak out from the bottom of their heart, while their written language is written with letters and numbers, that don‘t have any straight lines or edges, which makes them divine. (Hebrew comes close to this, I don‘t know in which book, but Swedenborg reports an Angels who tried to understand earthly languages, and no matter which one, he always couldn‘t understand or read a thing, but when he encountered the Hebrew letters, he began to say: „Y-yeah! I understand it! This means this/that, and this means this/that!“) While Angels can‘t read earthly written things, as Swedenborg describes, is there the possibility, that some actually do? There is the Natural Heaven and there are many Angles, who are allowed to understand some of the earthly concpets, like earthly time and space, etc. I really love learning and speaking different languages and many things sound in English way better than they sound in my native language, and I would like to ask, if some Angels can have the possibility to don‘t forget these earthly languages and some Angles who do remember them, talk to others in, for example, English and write in English with others understanding it? How does that work? I‘m, once again, confused…:D
Another point about which I‘m quite irritated are (some) spirits in hell. Ziewe describes a story of a woman, which looked like Swedenborg describes a certain type of evil spirits and she lived in a place, which looked a lot like the hell from Swedenborg‘s writings. By simply looking at her, Ziewe knew her intire story, she was a prostitute, who carried a lot of anger in herself about the people who had exploited her. He talked to her and when Ziewe told her, that she died, she bursted out into tears, saying, that she didn‘t know that, rather she thought, she was in a kind of, nightmare, not knowing how to wake up. Ziewe then took her into his arm, consoled her and they just walked a little along and talked. At the end of their walk, they were standing in a beautiful scenery and they sat down on a bench, and she looked absolutely perfect, like a young woman in her best years.
He reported talking to many people or spirits in hell, with some unable to thank him enough, that he helped them getting out of this state of mind and this place, while some of them didn‘t want to have anything to do with him and wanting to stay, where they are.
This didn‘t really confuse me that much, but in your understanding, do these stories make sense at all? Can people be cassed into hell, not knowing they were dead, just being evil in their blindness? Or does Swedenborg take a whole different view point on this? (Man, I can‘t get any variety into this…XD)
Also, I remember seeing an NDE-interview with a man, who was a really nasty and self-centered person, probably because his father, also was such a jerk (and his mother died early), who had a heart-attack, due to his extremely unhealthy lifestyle, was able to have a look into the new Jerusalem, and then being told by Jesus: „Nonono, my dear friend, your home for eternity is over there“, looking into a giant fiery pit, woth evil people inside. He saw his old friend, who passed away, his father, many Gang Members, even some old popes, and he thought to himself: „This. Is. Hell!“ And was nearly thrown into there, but then Jesus said: „Your wife‘s been praying for you. She saw your health and character deteriorating, and prays to me to save you, so I‘m ging to give you a second chance!“ Today, he‘s a priest and is, by friends and people from his community, reported to be the handsommest man alive.
And, I can‘t believe it, we‘re at the last question of this comment!
I‘ll keep it short: What/Where were we, before we were born?
This is really very much to go through, so, as always; Take your time!
Kind regards,
Anton
Hi Anton,
I’ll answer your last question first, in good biblical fashion. I have not yet read your entire novel. 😉
From a Swedenborgian Christian perspective, before we were conceived and born we did not exist except as an idea in the mind of God.
Specifically, according to Swedenborg, each new soul is an offshoot of the biological father’s soul, which is wrapped in various vessels and coatings in the semen, and fertilizes the egg in the mother’s womb, giving it spirit and life. The mother, he believed, contributed only the body.
Swedenborg did not know the function of sperm, and of course, the discovery of DNA was far in the future. He was therefore still operating on the old Aristotelian idea that the soul comes from the father and the body from the mother. Today, of course, knowing what we do about DNA and genetics, we would have to considerably modify that theory.
Long story short, I now believe that each new soul is a unique combination of unique offshoots of the souls of both the father and the mother. Based on Swedenborg’s system of correspondences, this seems necessary given that the physical process of reproduction must be a correspondential reflection and expression of the spiritual process of reproduction.
Another way of saying this is that each new human being is a brand new creation of God. We are not recycled, but newly manufactured! 😀
Hi Anton,
Now I’m reading the novel. 😉
On you first series of questions:
I would say that Ziewe and other “astral travelers” are seeing either actual landscapes in the spiritual world or what we would today call virtual landscapes, but also in the spiritual world. They are seeing, hearing, and otherwise sensing these things with their spiritual senses, which are the senses of their spiritual body, not with their physical senses.
Even actual landscapes in the spiritual world are precise reflections of the thoughts and feelings of the angels or spirits in the area. They are stable to the extent that those thoughts and feelings are stable, and ever-changing in the same way that people’s thoughts and feelings are ever-changing.
Given that this is the case even for the regular landscapes of the spiritual world, there is no limitation on the virtual landscapes that we could travel through there. They would be subject only to the limits of our imagination. Even Swedenborg, as I believe you once mentioned, spoke of a “rainbow heaven,” where everything was filled with rainbows.
I say “virtual landscapes” because these would be landscapes that people don’t actually live in, but that are generated by the travelings of our own mind. They may or may not correspond to inhabited areas of the spiritual world. An inhabited place would be what I’m calling an “actual landscape” in the spiritual world.
Swedenborg did say that the portion of the spiritual world that is inhabited is infinitesimally small compared to the vast uninhabited areas. Perhaps Ziewe and his fellow astral travelers are touring some of the uninhabited areas of the spiritual world that simply don’t yet have people to fill them and bring them alive.
However, these are still spiritual landscapes, being experienced with their spiritual senses. If Ziewe or any other astral travelers think that they are in any way having a direct experience of the mind of God, they are mistaken. God is on the divine level, and is entirely beyond our capacities, which are finite. The finite can never attain to the infinite. But the infinite can reach out to the finite, and make him/herself known to the finite.
However, so far in the videos you’ve linked for me that I’ve watched, I haven’t noticed Ziewe talking about God at all. So far, then, it doesn’t seem as if he’s claiming to be experiencing the mind of God.
Can spirits of the deceased visit the physical world? I know th
Hi World Questioner,
Not usually. But sometimes they can see the physical world through the eyes of a person still living in the spiritual world. Even this, though, happens only in special circumstances. For the most part, the deceased have moved on, and are no longer interested in visiting the physical world. The world they’re now in is far brighter and more beautiful.
Sorry my comment got cut off. I was sending it by email.
I have the WordPress app on my iPad, but…
Most of your blog posts are not indexed in WordPress Reader search, for whatever reason. And when I go to the history or list of your blog posts, some of your posts are not listed.
What about the angels, the “Messengers of God,” who are deceased and living in the Spiritual World? Don’t angels visit the physical world, as the Bible says?
Hi World Questioner,
The Bible doesn’t actually say that angels visited the physical world. It says that they visited people in the physical world. There’s a difference.
The physical world is . . . physical. But people are both physical and spiritual. Visiting people could mean visiting them physically, but it could also mean visiting them spiritually.
Long story short: When angels visit people on earth, the people see the angels with their spiritual senses, not with their physical senses. This is so even if the people who are visited are still conscious of their physical surroundings during the encounter. In that instance, their experience of seeing and hearing the angels with their spiritual senses becomes superimposed on their physical surroundings, such that it feels for all the world as if angels are visiting the physical world.
That’s what was happening in the angel encounters described in the Bible.
Will I miss my physical body? Will I miss the physical world?
I will talk about spiritual analog of technology in another post about “can angels play tennis?”
Hi World Questioner,
Unless you are very physical-minded and earthly, you will not miss your physical body. You’ll have a spiritual body that is so much better than your physical body ever was that the very thought of going back to your physical body would be like contemplating going back to prison.
Are you saying that angels cannot be photographed? Or recorded on camera? Wouldn’t live streaming of angels or Jesus convince some people of the supernatural? I’m not saying all people, but I’m sure at least SOME would be convinced.
Hi World Questioner,
Spiritual things cannot be detected by physical eyes or instruments. Only if spiritual things cause some physical manifestation could they be detected. And even then, it wouldn’t be the spirits and angels themselves that were photographed, but their effects upon the physical world.
And once again, I do not believe that miracles are a good way to convince skeptical and materialistic people of the truth.
Why would God not allow angels to interact with the physical world? Wouldn’t that make our post-death life be lesser? Since we no longer have a physical body. But when we are on Earth, it can’t also be inversely said that we do not have a spiritual body. See what I mean by “inverse”? We don’t lose the physical body and then get a spiritual body, we have both when living but only the latter when dead.
Why would God not allow angels to emit physical light (electromagnetic radiation) and physical sound (compression waves)? Wouldn’t at least some people believe? I’m sure there are at least some people that would say “If I see an angel and photograph it to prove it’s not a hallucination, I will believe”?
Why would God only allow organic life such as people to connect to the spiritual world, and not machines and electronics?
What is a good reason for God to do things the way he does?
Hi World Questioner,
Angels theoretically could interact with the physical world if they wanted to. But doing so would drag them out of the brilliance and joy of their heavenly state into the comparatively dark coldness of a physical state. It is therefore irrelevant whether God would allow them to do this. They do not want to do it, because it feels like a living death to do so. It would be like a living human being choosing to be encased and immobilized within a block of solid granite. Who would ever choose that compared to the freedom of life and motion enjoyed outside the block of granite?
Also, the spiritual body is so much more alive, healthy, and strong than the physical body that no angel would ever want to return to his or her physical body. It would be like switching from a Ferrari to a Gremlin. Who would do that?
We’ve already discussed at length why God does not give “proofs” of spiritual things to unbelievers. I can’t think of anything more to say on that subject at the moment.
Hi Anton,
About the organic substances of angels remaining in one place in the spiritual world even while they are appearing elsewhere:
I can’t say that I have a really clear idea of how this works. Though it’s a little easier for us to understand this today, given that we can have audio and video conversations with each other over great physical distances, and before long we’ll likely be able to project 3D images of ourselves over the same distances.
First, it is important to understand that angels and spirits are “organic” not in the sense of being made of physical organic matter, but in the sense of having highly organized spiritual bodies that have all the parts, organs, cells, and functions that our physical bodies do. Angels and spirits are not just wisps of ether. Their bodies are just as tangible and functional in the spiritual world as ours our in the physical world.
I’m not sure I would posit a distinct “thought body.” Angels/spirits spiritual bodies are the bodies that embody their thoughts, not to mention their feelings.
Perhaps you’re right, and there is a distinct “thought body.” But somehow I doubt that’s how it works in the spiritual world. I suspect it works more like a holographic projection does in the physical world, only with more solidity to it such that it can be touched by the people being visited at a distance.
But once again, I don’t have a clear idea of how this works. Perhaps an understanding of it will have to wait until I move on to the spiritual world.
Hi Anton,
About this:
Swedenborg didn’t actually say that he learned everything he wrote from the Lord. He said that nothing of the doctrines of the church came from any angel, but from the Lord alone, while he (Swedenborg) was reading the Word.
I’m not aware that Swedenborg provides any exact definition of what “the doctrines of the church” are. However, we can get some idea by reading the Table of Contents of his True Christian Religion, or even The New Jerusalem and its Heavenly Doctrine. There are some notable omissions from those TOCs. Neither one has a chapter on marriage, even though Swedenborg wrote and published an entire book about marriage. More to the current point, True Christian Religion has no chapter on the afterlife, though it talks about the new heaven and the new church, among other topics, in its final chapter. The New Jerusalem does have brief chapters (all of its chapters are brief) on resurrection and on heaven and hell.
This suggests that in general, the doctrines (or teachings) of the church have to do with God and salvation.
The function of the church is to provide us a pathway toward heaven that we can follow during our lifetime on earth. The teachings of the church are the specific teachings we need about God, the Bible, and salvation so that we can find our way to heaven.
Knowing exactly what the spiritual world is like isn’t required for us to find our way to heaven. Even knowing about spiritual marriage isn’t required for us to find our way to heaven.
What I’m suggesting is that Swedenborg included many things in his theological writings that are not part of the “doctrines of the church” that he received from the Lord alone while he was reading the Word. He had many conversations with angels. He even discussed the doctrines of the church with them. But they were not his source of information for those doctrines. They were a source of information for many things about the nature of the spiritual world that don’t constitute “the doctrines of the church,” but that are good and useful for us to know about.
I should mention that there is a sect of Swedenborgians that believe that everything Swedenborg wrote constitutes “the doctrines of the church.” And they do indeed believe that God revealed to him even the things that angels and spirits told him. He mentions at one point that he only wrote what was true, and not what was false. This is taken to mean that God revealed to him even what angels and spirits spoke to him.
However, this view is becoming less and less defensible as the centuries pass since Swedenborg published his writings in the eighteenth century. We now know that he wrote quite a few things that have turned out not to be true. This is a very difficult pill for that sect of Swedenborgians to swallow. They still don’t quite know what to do with the fact that there are no people on the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, not to mention the rest of the planets discovered after Swedenborg’s lifetime, and even all their moons, which Swedenborg also said must be inhabited. And yet, Swedenborg said that he was “told from heaven” that the aliens he met in the spiritual world came from this or that planet.
That’s not the only thing Swedenborg said that has turned out not to be true. For a short list of only a few more of them, see the section titled “Some things Swedenborg was wrong about” in this article:
Do the Teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg take Precedence over the Bible?
To me, it is very obvious that everything Swedenborg learned about angels and spirits and their various heavens and hells is not “doctrine of the church,” but rather experience of the spiritual world that Swedenborg passed on to us for our edification and enjoyment.
I tend to believe that much of this material was meant to be fishing hooks to draw us in to the actual doctrines of the church. See, for example, the section titled “Attracting people who are curious” in this article:
Aliens vs. Advent: Swedenborg’s 1758 Book on Extraterrestrial Life
It is notable that in many of his books written and published after Arcana Coelestia, Swedenborg provided extensive references back to places in Arcana Coelestia that discuss various topics brought up in those later books. I believe Swedenborg dearly wanted people to find and accept “the doctrines of the church,” but realized that he had to hook them with “sexier” knowledge that everyone wants, such as what happens to us and to our loved ones in the afterlife, and whether there are people living on other planets.
Hi Anton,
About your whole section on being incarnated and reincarnated:
Bottom line: I don’t believe it.
However, there are people in the spiritual world who believe all sorts of things—not only true things, but false things—and they are just as convinced of the false things as people on earth are convinced of their favorite false ideas. Just take a look at the flat-earthers, and you have your example of people who fervently believe something that is absolutely ridiculous.
So of course there will be people in the spiritual world who will tell astral travelers that reincarnation is real. Of course, they could simply be liars. But they could completely believe what they are saying. And if they do, then they will have had plenty of time to interpret everything they have ever seen and experienced in terms of reincarnation. So they can talk at length about how reincarnation works, how they have been reincarnated, how you can be reincarnated, and on and on. Just as flat-earthers can put up massive websites explaining everything they know about the universe through the lens of the earth being flat. It’s all nonsense, but to them it makes perfect sense.
Bodily reincarnation simply doesn’t happen. What does happen is spiritual rebirth. That’s what Jesus was talking about in the Bible. It’s also what the Eastern sacred literature is talking about. But since we earthlings have become so materialistic, we read those scriptures as if they were talking about physical rebirth. The fault is not with those scriptures. It is with our materialistic thinking.
Hi Anton,
About Swedenborg’s presentation of people on other planets as human:
First, Swedenborg did see them as fully human even in appearance, though there were variations such as being tall or short or having different shades on their faces instead of beards.
But Swedenborg’s primary definition of human is having human will and understanding, which are capable of thinking about God and spirit and capable of unselfishly loving God and the neighbor. In that sense, the physical appearance of races on other planets doesn’t really matter.
However, an argument could be made that the human physical form is not arbitrary, but is an accurate representation and instrument of the human mind and its human will and understanding. If that is true, then no matter what planet and what ecosystem a race developed on, it would move toward the human form as it became mentally and spiritually human.
I am reminded of the observation among evolutionists that various creatures just keep on evolving into crabs. (I’m not sure if I’ve got the wording quite right.) There seems to be something about crabs that just lends itself to earlier life forms evolving into them. Perhaps the same is true of the human physical form.
As for people seeing weird blue aliens, well, those ones feel much more “alien,” to us, and fire up our imagination more than people who look pretty much like us. So if people want something “alien,” they’re going to imagine and visualize something very different from us. Hence all the weird looking aliens in the clickbait alien videos.
Practically speaking, we have not yet come across any alien races here in the physical universe. This means that we have only one example of an intelligent race, which is our human race here on earth. Until we do find and see intelligent life from another planet, what they’ll look like is mostly speculation.
Hi Anton,
About the “Akashic Records”:
Swedenborg does say that everything we have ever experienced is stored in full sensory detail in our spiritual memory, and can be accessed if there is a need to. He mentions criminals who denied their crimes having their memories played back to them in full detail of each crime they committed, one after another, such that they could no longer deny them.
So yes, all human memory of all human experience remains available in the spiritual world forever. This is the factual basis of the “Akashic Records.” These “records” can even be accessed by others under certain circumstances, such as the one I mentioned just above. “Memories of past lives” are also examples of accessing other people’s memories, but thinking they are our own memories.
But for the most part, people in the spiritual world forget their experiences in the spiritual world, just as we no longer remember our experiences in the womb. They are living in a much brighter, more beautiful, and more real world than this earthly world, which is dark and dim by comparison. If they really wanted to access their earthly memories for some reason, they could. But angels, especially, live in the present, not in the past. Why would they want to think back of the dark and dim times on earth, any more than we go about our day wanting to remember what it was like to be in the dark confines of our mother’s womb?
As for the future, that is available only to God, for whom it is not the future, but simply part of the eternal present consciousness of God. See:
If God Already Knows What We’re Going to Do, How Can We Have Free Will?
What we can have is some sense or extrapolation of what the future will be like based on our past and present experience. But we can never know for sure what it will be, because on the levels in which we humans exist, which are the physical and spiritual levels, the future has not happened yet. It therefore cannot be recorded in any spiritual “database” to which we could have access.
If it were possible for us to know who won the next baseball game, there would be some extremely rich astral travelers who would make all sorts of money from the bookies. 😀
Hi Anton,
About this:
This is perfectly possible. Animals do correspond to various human characteristics. Sheep, for example, correspond to innocence, and horses to rational understanding. Connecting with an animal that represents something we need the strength of in our life could be very helpful for certain types of people.
Hi Anton,
About this:
Swedenborg does and doesn’t teach that there is a “final state” for human beings.
He does in that we can be regenerated to the heavenly level, which is the highest level we can attain.
He doesn’t in that no matter what level we regenerate to, there will always be infinitely more for us to learn, and infinitely more room for us to grow spiritually. We will never reach a state of “perfection” or “completion.”
I know that some people think that they themselves, or some historical figure such as the Buddha, achieved universal enlightenment, such that they basically have attained to the mind of God. But that is not possible for human beings. We will never be limitless beings as God is. There will always be boundaries to our knowledge and understanding. We can be continually expanding those boundaries, but we can never eliminate all boundaries.
What can happen is that people may have an experience that goes so far beyond anything we experience in our ordinary everyday consciousness that to them it feels like they have attained all knowledge and grasped the entire universe in one view.
But they still don’t know everything. There are still questions you could ask them that they couldn’t answer. The sense of universal consciousness is a feeling, not a reality.
In Swedenborg’s descriptions of the spirits who (he believed) came from Mercury, he says that unlike other spirits, they continually travel around to different regions of the spiritual universe, always wanting to learn everything there is to learn. Sometimes they get a bit too full of themselves, and think they know everything there is to know. But then other angels who are at a higher level than they are start listing category after category of knowledge about which they know nothing, so much so that they weren’t even aware that that type of knowledge existed. Then they become humble again, recognizing that what they know compared to what they don’t know is like a single drop of water compared to the ocean.
That’s how it will be in the spiritual world for astral travelers who get so full of themselves that they think they know everything there is to know.
Hi Anton,
About this:
According to Swedenborg, angels do have excellent memories. If they want to recall every single game they ever played, they can do so.
Whether they would want to is another question entirely. I suspect that much of it becomes “muscle memory,” which they no longer have any interest in consciously recalling.
As an example of this, when I am riding my bike, which is my primary form of exercise these days, I rarely think about the day that I finally decided that I was going to learn to ride a bike (rather late, I’m afraid), and did so by the end of that day. I’m too busy riding to think about the time before I could ride a bike, and the day that I finally got the hang of it.
So yes, it is possible for angels to access all their past memories if they want to. But in general, once they’ve gained the experience and learned the lessons of past events, I don’t think they’d have much desire to relive the past. Their present is much more interesting and absorbing than the past. They’re always looking to the next think they can learn, and the next skill they can gain.
Hi Anton,
About angelic language vs. earthly languages:
That, to me, is something of a conundrum. On the one hand, Swedenborg says that everyone comes into an immediate understanding of and ability to speak the universal language of the spiritual world as soon as they arrive there. On the other hand, Swedenborg says that every book ever written, even private diaries that were never published, exists in the spiritual world, not a word being missing. And angels and spirits are always quoting the Bible!
Somehow there is both a universal spiritual language and all of the books in all of the earthly languages are still preserved in the spiritual world. How exactly this works, I don’t claim to know. But if a book was originally written in French or English, and not a word of it is missing in the spiritual world, how could it not be French or English there?
The closest I’ve come to any theory is that earthly books do exist in heaven exactly as they are written and printed here on earth, but when angels read them, they don’t see the earthly words at all, but those words are seamlessly translated in their minds into the heavenly language. If they tried to focus on the words printed on the page and bypass that translation, they wouldn’t be able to understand a word of it, as Swedenborg says.
This is similar to how Swedenborg says angels read the Bible: They pay no attention whatsoever to the literal sense, but see right through it to the spiritual sense. The literal sense still exists. But it is like a crystal or prism through which other sights are seen. If you focus on the crystal itself, it’s just a rock or a piece of glass.
Where this all leaves language scholars in the spiritual world, I really don’t know. This is something I’m not sure I’ll fully understand until I arrive in the spiritual world myself.
Hi Anton,
About people being led out of hell because they didn’t realize they were there and such:
This, I believe, is more of a metaphorical experience than a literal one. It is more about people on this earth than it is about people in the actual hell of the spiritual world.
The whole point of our life on earth is to allow ourselves to be led out of the hell of our own self-absorption into the heaven of love for God and the neighbor. When some enlightened and caring person comes along and helps someone to make that journey, they are indeed very grateful.
And yet, it is hubris to think that I am the one who saved that person from hell. No. They wanted to get out of hell, and were ready to move out of hell, and we just happened to be the one whom God sent to guide them out of hell. It is always God, never us, who leads both others and ourselves out of hell.
Having said that, even in the spiritual world there are recently arrived spirits who get sucked down into the areas just above hell, if not into hell itself, because they have been involved in some dark and shady things here on earth. Prostitutes would certainly qualify. If they continue to engage in prostitution in the spiritual world, they will indeed be sucked down toward hell, if not into hell, because prostitution is ultimately hellish. However, if they still have a good heart underneath it all, they will eventually realize that a life of prostitution is not the life for them, and will be ready to give it up.
Perhaps Ziewe encountered some of these recently arrived spirits (“recently” as in, they died not more than a decade or two ago) who had been sucked down into a hellish state due to their bad outward practices or associations in the physical world. Perhaps he actually did lead some of these out of hell when they were ready to leave.
But as for the permanent residents of hell, who do not have a good heart beneath it all, but have consciously chosen a life of selfishness and greed when they could have chosen a different life, these will never leave hell. If Ziewe encountered any of them and tried to lead them out of hell, they would spit in his face and tell him to @#$% off. It would be a “pearls before swine” situation.
In the above article, see the section titled “A conversation with some inhabitants of hell” for an example of actual lifers in hell. God would very much love to send an angel to lead them out of hell. But they utterly refuse, because they love the life they are living in hell, even if it does have its disadvantages.
Hi Anton,
About your second-to-last question-ish thing, in which an NDEer gets a second chance:
This, I think, is what NDEs are all about. Giving people a second chance to walk a spiritual path.
Yes, there was the little drama about Jesus first saying to the man that he was headed to hell, but then saying that his wife was praying for him so now Jesus was giving him a second chance. These dramas play out for our benefit. I’ll bet that if he was a nasty and self-centered person, he hadn’t treated his wife very well. But after hearing from none other than Jesus that his wife was the one who saved his sorry ass from hell, I’ll bet he came back thinking (rightly!) that she was God’s gift to him!
God (and Jesus is God) always has reasons for saying what God says to us. And God always has to put it in terms that we can understand, including in a worldview that we can understand. The reality is that God doesn’t send anyone to hell. But many people think God sends people to hell. If that idea is firmly embedded in someone’s mind due to their religious upbringing, and they have an encounter with Jesus, Jesus won’t give them a mini theology lecture about “appearances of truth,” and how God isn’t really angry with them and won’t really send them to hell. Instead, Jesus will use their existing beliefs to convey the message that needs to be conveyed.
In this case, the message was, “You’d better repent and straighten out your life, or it’s that giant fiery pit for you!”
Apparently, in that man’s case it was very effective! 😉
Okay, I think I’ve reached the end of your novel. In this case, the second-to-last shall be last! 😀
I hope you’ve found these responses helpful.
Actually, I had a very big comment with many, many different questions, which i wrote over the last couple weeks. YES, WEEKS! 😀
This was just, sort of, the side comment.
This comment contains the playlist, about I talked with you earlier, I’ll talk about it later, I just would like to ask, if the comment was probably too big, because appearently you didn’t recieve it. Or did you?
Kind wishes and a good start into the weekend!
Anton
Hi Anton,
Your long comment went to the spam folder. I fished it out a little while ago.
And now, I have a novel to read . . . . 😉
PS: The NDEr was also the person who was told by the spirits in the afterlife, that there’s reincarnation.
Hi Anton,
I’ve lost the flow of this thread. But in general, there are spirits who believe all sorts of things just as there are people on earth who believe all sorts of things. Dying and going to the spiritual world doesn’t automatically bring full enlightenment and the expunging of all false ideas from people’s minds.
Oh, I’m sorry, this wasn’t meant to be a question, but just a quick sidenote. 😀 Maybe the comment, again, is just stuck in the spam folder…
Hi Anton,
Oops, yes, apparently the spam filter doesn’t like your long comments. 😦 I’ve fished it out again.
Hi Lee,
while I’m asking you, if you could watch the playlist and then give an anwser the points made in the videos, I’d like to ask, if there is a possible hobby in Heaven that is aquivalent to leading battles on earth? While I’m strongly against war and hate hearing about high number of deaths and always feel really bad for, recently in Ukraine and Israel/Palestine, the people who lose their life and/or suffer in these areas, I really like playing strategy (board) games, not neccessarily war games. Is there the possibility for an Angel, if they desire to, play strategy games? From a rational perspective, because I’m sure, Swedenborg doesn’t talk about it that much…😅
Kind Regards
Hi Anton,
I don’t know if strategy board games existed in Swedenborg’s day. But I don’t see any reason why angels couldn’t play them if they wanted to. We don’t become completely different people in heaven than we were on earth. The things we like here will be the same things we like there.
Hi Lee, lately I was wondering about food in Heaven. Swedenborg said, that the people of the earliest church ate only grains and he himself had, as far as I know, a vegetarian diet, while he sometimes ate meat at banquets of the nobility, where he was constantly been invited. The food in Heaven is supposedly delicious, it is an embodiement of love. Whilst the food in Hell is unpleasent and not very tasty.
How is the food going to be in Heaven? Do Angels have a vegetarian or even vegan diet?
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
I suspect there is as much variety in the food people eat in heaven as there is here on earth, if not more.
I wouldn’t swear that everyone in heaven is vegetarian. Swedenborg himself was not rigorously vegetarian. He did sometimes eat fish even when he wasn’t at a banquet. (But I would not look to Swedenborg’s diet as a model. For example, he loved strong coffee with massive amounts of sugar. Not particularly healthful!) For Swedenborg’s main statement about eating meat, see Secrets of Heaven #1002.
Hi Lee,
I wanted to ask you a question, that means a lot to me. Imagine for me, if you will, that two little children like to play knights and dragon and read many books about knights and so on. It really is their passion. Will this state of passion for knights and dragons return after death, when they’re in Heaven? And: This hobby is really…out there, if you know, what I’m sayin’. It really involves much fantasy and imagination. I can think of many other hobbies, but it’s not important, one example’s enough. Did Swedenborg say anything about dream-fullfillment? Or do you have any thoughts on that? Because I can imagine these two being in that child-like state again. (I remember Swedenborg talking about an abusive man with a soft core, who suddenly found himself being a child again in front of his parents, because that helped him solving some sort of node in himself and WITH his parents.)
And I can imagine these boys really wanting to live out their passion without any boundaries and really going on a quest, as knights, sent by the queen or whatever😅, going through the fairytale-forest until they reach the dragon’s cave, awaking it from it’s sleep and going into the fight with him. (If they’re winning the fight, is going to be an other question. ;))
And some hobbies and passions involve earthly concepts, for example earthly time. Angels in the natural or outermost Heaven will still be engaging in and knowing about earthly concepts, but are there also spiritual or heavenly Angels who have at least the perception of one/some earthly or natural concept/s?
Another question: I love winter, the whiteness, the snow, the tranquillity, the coffee and cocoa inside in front of the chimney, while there’s a blizzard outside.
🎶The cold never bothered me anyway🎵, as I have roots from Northern Siberia.😅 Will I have to let go of the winter’s beautiful experience, because of the negative correspondence, that the winter represents, will I realize that it’s not worth it and eventually bury (not forget tho) the memories of winter days, because I don’t NEED them anymore or will I have the possibility of still experiencing the joys of the beautiful winter?
And as it’s winter right now, I can just hope, you’re having a wondeful one, I wish you a Happy New Year!
Anton
Hi Anton,
The simplest answer to your question is: Everything we have here on earth, we also have in the spiritual world, and more.
I believe that everything we can even imagine here on earth actually exists in the spiritual world. For example, the Star Trek holodeck, where people can immerse themselves in imagined worlds as if they were real. Constructing a world in which there are kings, queens, knights, dragons, and quests would be a piece of cake. And then the two adventurers could be home for supper . . . and it would still be hot. (Have you ever read Where the Wild Things Are, by Maurice Sendak?)
The same would be true for a wintry landscape. For me, ice skating is a little piece of heaven. But my wife and I are now living in the southern hemisphere, where not only is it summer when it’s winter up in the frozen north, but the ponds never freeze. And rinks just don’t do it for me. I certainly hope that when it comes our time to move on to the other world, I’ll once again be able to lace up my skates and glide effortlessly over the ice in the chill air.
As for the negative correspondence of winter and snow, another thing to consider is that everything has a negative correspondence and a positive correspondence. There are mentions of snow in the Bible that have a positive correspondence, such as, “His appearance was like lightning and his clothing white as snow” (Matthew 28:3) and, “His head and his hair were white as white wool, white as snow” (Revelation 1:14). If snow can have a positive correspondence in the Bible, why can’t it have a positive correspondence in the spiritual world as well?
Hi Lee,
I remembered, that in your last answer to my question, you mentioned that if we imagine a world, in which there are queens, knights, dragons and so on, this World appear, and it’d be real!
Does this mean, that the queen, the knights and the dragon are spontaneous generated by the person’s mind, who caused himself/herself to be there? Or are they made by them (/their state) and can exist everytime the person visits this magic kingdom?
Or does it all exist already, and the queen, knights and even the dragon are Angels (for the dragon-part, i don’t know…😅), who like to live in this world, or are from other planets/times and are used to live in this environment?
Kind regards,
Anton
Hi Anton,
First I should be clear that this whole idea is a supposition and opinion of mine, and not something Swedenborg said. Or maybe I should give credit to my mother, who thought that everything we can imagine exists somewhere in the spiritual world. But that’s not something Swedenborg explicitly said. And it may or may not be true.
But to answer your question, everything in the spiritual world is spontaneously generated, but not exactly by people’s minds. More accurately, they are created by God from moment to moment based on what’s in the minds of the people in the area. Everything is created by God. Even evil things have their ultimate origin in God. But when what is good flows out from God through the minds of evil people, it is twisted and converted into things that are evil. Hence the origin of dragons and such in their negative meaning, in the spiritual world.
Based on this, if my supposition and opinion is correct, then when we enter into “virtual worlds” in the spiritual world that reflect the desires and scenarios we spin in our minds, what is actually happening is that God is creating those scenarios for us so that we can enter and experience them.
Even in Star Trek, people don’t directly create the scenes in the holodeck. The holodeck itself does that, based on what people program it to do. Similarly, in the spiritual world God creates the scenery around us based on what is within us, in our mind.
As for these scenarios, and the beings they are populated with, “existing already,” if they are characters being played by other angels or spirits, then those angels and spirits would exist already. Everything else in the spiritual world comes into and out of existence as it reflects or does not reflect the minds of the angels and spirits in the area. As in most video games, the “game engine” (in this case, God) does not create the various scenes unless and until there are people (angels and spirits) who want to experience them. When that interest and desire fades, the scenes fade as well.
This is based on Swedenborg, who says that plants, animals, and other things seen in heaven come and go based on the mental and emotional states of the angels and spirits there. If something in the environment has permanence, such as an angel’s house, it has permanence because it represents a settled part of the angel’s character. Even then, it will go through gradual change as the spiritual equivalent of time passes, because angels themselves gradually learn and grow, and this is reflected in their houses just as it is in everything else around them.
Hi Lee,
In the natural Heaven, the Angels who live there, still carry natural concepts in them and understand them. A good example for this is when Swedenborg found out that there were, in fact, some Angels who understood the concept of earthly time and space.
Do you have general thoughts on the question, whether some or every Angel(s) in the higher two Heavens also can do that? There are many passions and interests of people here on earth, that encompass these. I think, Swedenborg didn’t talk about that, but do you have a opinion about that? Sure, there are natural concepts of which we’re going to let go, because in Heaven, there’s a whole other thing goin’ on.😁
But maybe there are a few, in which we were very interested on earth, and will be. Still, in Heaven.
Kind wishes
Hi Anton,
Do you, by any chance, have the book(s) and section number(s) where Swedenborg said this?
Hi Anton,
Unfortunately, this thread is getting a little tangled up in the order of replies. The WordPress software doesn’t handle long and highly nested comment chains all that well. I had to limit the nesting levels to prevent long, narrow, unreadable columns of words in replies.
In your comment here you said you were referring to this passage in Heaven and Hell #33:
You then went on to say:
That was what I was particularly interested in seeing where you derived it from.
I suspect that the natural/earthly heaven is getting tangled up with the natural world, when the two are quite distinct.
Even the natural heaven is wholly spiritual in its substance and operation. What makes it natural is not that the angels there are immersed in earthly concepts, but rather that they are focused only on outward behavior, not on an inner understanding of what makes the behavior right or wrong, which is characteristic of the spiritual heaven, still less on the love for God and the neighbor from which it comes, which is characteristic of the highest, heavenly heaven. Not that angels of the natural heaven don’t have any love of God and the neighbor. They just don’t really think about it all that much. Mostly, they listen to what they’re supposed to do, and they happily do it without thinking about it more deeply.
In other words, they’re a lot like ordinary working people on this earth who don’t inquire too deeply about the whys and wherefores of everything. When their boss tells them to do this or that job in this or that way, they just go about the task of doing it to the best of their ability. If they do a good job and the boss is happy with the results, they’re perfectly content. They have no desire or need to be running the show, and they don’t particularly need the big picture, either. They just do the task in front of them, and they do it well.
These are good people. Hence they’re in heaven. They’re just not deep people. They’re focused on outward action, not on inner contemplation or love.
However, if you do come across a passage that says what you remember reading, please do run it by me, and I’ll take a look.
Hi Lee,
I lately watched a documentary about quantumphysics, that just confused me so much, to the point, where I began to think about the transition and distinction between the physical and spiritual worlds and I couldn’t really make sense of it in my head. Or to say it better, I got the Swedenborgian message, but I got confused by the quantumphysics’ explanations.
So, it’s common for New Ager’s to believe, that the afterlife is basically the exact same world, but on a level, where molecules and stuff vibrate with a much higher frequence. They back this up, with the quantumphysics’ understanding, that no energy whatsoever EVER goes lost or disappears, it just becomes less and less (or something like that😅). No power can ever become zero or infinity. I think, that from a Swedenborgian perspective, the physical and spiritual World are completely distinct from one another, but then how would you explain this phenomenon, that people describe?
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
What is lacking in these New Age ideas is a clear understanding of Swedenborg’s concept of distinct levels and gradual levels (“discrete degrees” and “continuous degrees” in traditional Swedenborgianese). This is the subject of Part 3 of Divine Love and Wisdom (#173–281), if you want to read up on it for yourself. Gradual levels are when something moves smoothly from one end of a spectrum to the other, such as light to dark or cold to hot. Distinct levels are when there are sudden jumps from one state to another, such as liquid, solid, and gaseous or sound waves, electromagnetic waves, and gravitational waves.
Within the material universe there are various sets of distinct levels, such as the ones I just mentioned. These commonly (but not always) come in threes. Within each distinct level, there are gradual levels. For example, ice heats up, remaining ice, until its melting point, at which point it suddenly becomes liquid water. Liquid water likewise heats up, remaining water, until it reaches its boiling point, at which point it suddenly becomes gaseous water, or steam.
These transitions between distinct levels do often involve slower and faster frequencies—or “vibrations,” to use the popular term. Lower levels are at lower frequencies, and higher levels are at higher frequencies. However, the frequency isn’t what distinguishes levels from one another. Sound waves and electromagnetic waves actually overlap each other in frequency. However, they are carried by two distinct media, and propagate by two distinct methods. Sound waves travel in a physical medium (solid, liquid, or gaseous), and involve mechanical motion in that medium. Electromagnetic waves are seen as being pure energy traveling without a medium, although I tend to think that the electromagnetic field itself constitutes a medium. In Swedenborg’s day, this was called the “ether,” but scientists no longer believe in ether.
At any rate, even though the frequencies overlap, sound waves don’t shade into electromagnetic waves, or the reverse. They are quite distinct from one another. Ditto electromagnetic waves and gravitational waves.
Interestingly enough, physicists have been attempting for over a century now to come up with a theory that unifies all the forces in the universe into a single descriptive equation, but have so far been unable to do so. I suspect this has something to do with the distinct levels between various types of energy in the physical universe. But I’m not a physicist, so you can take that theory with a grain of salt.
To sum up, although higher distinct levels tend to be capable of higher frequencies than lower distinct levels, they can overlap in frequency, meaning that frequency is not what distinguishes one level of reality from another.
Having said that, Swedenborg sometimes speaks of the ratio between spiritual and material as being a thousand to one. I don’t think he’s being literal. Rather, he’s saying that spiritual reality is orders of magnitude finer and more detailed than physical reality, which is very coarse-grained by comparison.
Related to this, as covered in Part 3 of Divine Love and Wisdom, distinct levels can also involve successively larger bundlings of things. An example from today’s physics would be subatomic particles that bundle together to make atoms, atoms that bundle together to make molecules, and molecules that bundle together to form an object. Each of these levels of substance can be viewed distinctly. One level cannot be changed into another. Rather, a smaller level can be bound together in groups to form a larger level.
Neither is each level just a bigger bunch of the smaller level that constitutes it. Subatomic particles operate in a particular way, by a particular set of forces and laws. Atoms and molecules do behave in a fairly similar fashion, and probably shouldn’t even be considered in distinct levels from one another. But the objects made of atoms and molecules behave in a way distinct from the atoms and molecules that form them, according to a distinct set of forces and laws.
These sorts of bundlings do not seem to be the only distinctions between discrete levels. Spiritual reality is not just a “bundling” of divine reality (God). Nor is physical reality just a “bundling” of spiritual reality. But exploring all these distinctions would send us too far off on a tangent.
To round things out, distinct levels are also called “vertical levels,” because they are conceptually one above the other, whereas gradual levels are called “horizontal levels,” because they are gradual changes across the “width” of a particular distinct level of reality.
This is a very brief and imperfect summary of a concept that takes up one-fifth of Swedenborg’s grand cosmological work, Divine Love and Wisdom. If you’re interested in these fascinating and brain-bending subjects, I highly recommend reading that book for yourself.
In the grand scheme of things, there are three distinct levels:
Within each of these major distinct levels there are gradual levels, not to mention further subdivisions of distinct levels. Between each of them, there is a distinct level. This means that God does not shade into spirit, or the reverse, and material reality does not shade into spiritual reality, or the reverse. Each level is entirely distinct from the other two.
One of the key distinctions is that divine reality (God) is infinite, whereas both created levels of reality, spiritual and material, are finite. A corresponding distinction is that material reality is limited (made finite) by time and space, whereas spiritual reality is not. Rather, spiritual reality is limited (made finite) by human mental and emotional states, corresponding to physical time and space.
These distinctions form definite boundaries between each of these levels of reality. Physical reality cannot blend into spiritual reality because physical reality is bounded by time and space, whereas spiritual reality is not. Spiritual reality cannot blend into divine reality because spiritual reality is bounded by the limitations of human intellectual and emotional capacity, whereas God’s intellect and emotions have no limitations at all: they are infinite.
How does all of this relate to your original question?
New Age technobabble to the contrary notwithstanding, we are not just bundles of quantum energy.
Quantum physics does sound strange and non-physical to ordinary people who are used to stubbing their toes on rocks. But quantum physics is still physics. It is the study of one particular part of material reality. Its forces and laws are all material forces and laws, not spiritual forces and laws. Many of the scientists who study quantum mechanics don’t even believe in God and spirit, yet they are perfectly comfortable studying quantum physics. That’s precisely because quantum physics is physical, not spiritual.
Most if not all New Agers who babble on about “quantum reality” and “quantum states” and mix these all up with spiritual reality and spiritual states have no scientific training, and do not even have the basics in mathematics and physics to understand what quantum mechanics is, and how physicists arrived at the theories underlying it. (I, also, do not claim to have such training and knowledge.) These are not spiritual theories. They are physical theories, arrived at through scientific method and physical experimentation.
Is there a relationship between quantum reality and spiritual reality? Yes, there is. Does quantum reality reflect spiritual reality? Yes, it does.
But it does so, not by blending into spiritual reality, but by reflecting spiritual reality on a lower distinct level of reality. Spiritual reality is spiritual. Quantum reality is physical. They do not blend into one another. They are entirely distinct from one another, just as sound waves, electromagnetic waves, and gravitational waves do not blend into each other, but are entirely distinct from one another. However, spiritual reality is on a distinctly higher plane of reality than all of physical reality, including quantum physics.
It’s not necessarily wrong to use modern physics as an illustration of spiritual things. I have attempted to do so, as a scientific layman, in this two-part series here:
However, in using physical phenomena to illustrate spiritual realities, it is important to recognize that these are two distinct levels of reality. They do not blend into each other. Rather, they relate to each other by what Swedenborg calls “correspondences.” But that’s an entirely different discussion of its own!
As for no energy ever being lost or disappearing, that’s not quantum theory. It’s part of the second law of thermodynamics, which was formulated long before quantum theory even existed. Specifically, it is part of the concept of entropy, in which matter and energy can become more and more scattered, but it cannot disappear entirely.
In physical reality, it does seem to be true that “no power can ever become zero or infinity.” On the zero end of the scale, it just keeps getting thinner and more spread out rather than ever reaching zero. On the infinite end of the scale, only God is infinite. There is not infinite energy in the physical universe because the physical universe is finite, not infinite.
In other words, this very limitation on physical reality is one of the reasons quantum reality can’t just be morphed into spiritual reality, and certainly not into God. The universe is not God, as the pantheists believe. A better concept is panentheism, as long as we don’t go for the versions of that theory in which the universe is part of God.
In reality, physical reality is not part of spiritual reality, nor is spiritual reality part of physical reality. In accordance with Swedenborg’s concept of distinct levels, these two, and God, are distinctly different from one another. They are each distinct levels of reality that don’t blend into one another, but relate to each other through “correspondence.” That is another of Swedenborg’s concepts, about the living relationship between different levels of reality, in which lower levels do express the nature of higher levels, but in a more limited way than the higher levels they express.
What does all this mean for us?
We humans are not just undifferentiated bundles of quantum energy. Rather, we consist of two of the three main levels of reality: spiritual and physical. (No part of us is God, and we are not part of God. However God is in us, continually giving us existence and life.)
Our physical body is the part of us that interacts with the physical world. Our spiritual body is the part of us that interacts with the spiritual world. Our (physical) body and our spirit are in constant detailed interaction with one another as long as we are living in the physical world. But one does not shade into the other, nor can one become the other. The two are quite distinct from one another.
When we die, we leave behind our physical body, since it is of no further use to us. We then wake up in our spiritual body, which we have had all along, and continue our life in the spiritual world. That world is just as solid, real, detailed, and complex as the physical world—in fact, much more so! And it is the world that we are ultimately designed to live in.
Our time in this world is like our time in the womb. It is where we develop into the people we will be once we are “born” into the spiritual world at the time of our physical death. Our time in this world is therefore critical and indispensable, just as our time in the womb is critical and indispensable. But like our time in the womb, it is also temporary. And there is no need to repeat it. Once we have developed our character in this world, we do not need to come back here and do it again, any more than we need to go back into our mother’s womb and start all over once we have become an adult.
There is, of course, far more that could be said about all this. But I hope this much is enough to provide a better foundation for thinking about these things. Once again, for a deep dive into these subjects, I highly recommend Swedenborg’s book Divine Love and Wisdom. It is a masterclass in divine, spiritual, and physical reality!
P.S. I hope you don’t mind if I turn your question, and my response, into a new post.
Hi Lee,
I asked you a question two days ago, and I don’t whether it’s because I’ve been posting too much comments on this particular post or something, but I’ve kinda got the feeling that it, again, is located in your spam folder…maybe…
Hi Anton,
Your earlier comment didn’t go into spam. But it did disappear from my brain.
I have now responded to it just above, here.
I just made my mind up after taking some more time to think about it and I guess I would now say that I can picture this a lot like this: Angels focuse on and live the present moment, they don’t worry all that much about what’s in the past or future. And in that sense I could guess that the song will always stay fresh because I won’t be thinking about how nice the song felt or will feel next time, just ’bout how I like it NOW. and I won’t have to worry about songs participating twice in 20 trillion years in the ESC. 🙂
Hi Anton,
This comment got separated quite a distance from your previous one on this subject. For those reading in, you can see the first comment and my response to it starting here.
Hi Lee,
I heard someone from Off The Left Eye say, that there are states or dimensions or worlds or whatever, that are located between the highest Heaven and the Divine level. Maybe those kinds of states are in what astral travellers find themselves if they meditate and try to access the highest state of them all (which they don’t know is unaccessable) and some of them say that they’ve experienced the TRUE HEIGHT of all experiences. Do you have some thoughts on that?
Swedenborg reports that Angels see the landscapes that surround them as a reflection of their inner self, which also is like it is, but they ONLY consider their surroundings beautiful, because of the things they represent (Correspondences). In this world there are many people (just like myself) who also find their surroundings beautiful for what they are (for example thinking about how the plants grew out of the ground or just generally, I mean everyone has his/her own taste of what is beautiful, but mostly a park is more beautiful than a slum 🙂 ). Is that connected to the Loves of the world? And if so, are there some Angels who continue thinking in this way, even when their loves have been arranged in a way, that their Love to the Lord and the Neighbor are more powerful than the Loves of self and the world?
In True Christianiy §386 Swedenborg describes to Angels meeting and they come to each other via carriages, it looked like from distance, but once they come nearer the carriages looks as though they would disappear, without them stepping out of them or anything. Were they really in carriages? Did they realize that or care about it? On earth, there are many people who say: “Ugh, I hate planes, but I have to take them to get to work”, or “I don’t care about planes! What’s so great about planes, I mean it’s just a basic form of transportation, why should I care about it?” But there are also people who love planes and find them quite interesting, the physics behind it, the airlines and airports, and so on. I don’t really know how my question should be XD but maybe you could just, you know, respond to these thoughts in some way…( I’m making it increasingly difficult for you to answer my questions
…XD)
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
Haha! It’s spiritual Jeopardy: What is the question to this . . . question?
Anyway, on your first question:
I would have to see what that OTLE episode actually said. Yes, there are levels above the highest heaven. But these are not levels inhabited or visited by created human beings. They are levels of God, or levels of creation immediately surrounding God as a means of God creating and sustaining creation.
For example, the spiritual sun is not actually God, even though it is sometimes loosely said that it is. More exactly, God is within the spiritual sun. The spiritual sun itself is the first created emanation from God. However, just as humans cannot fly into the sun and survive the encounter, no matter how strong their spaceship may be, so humans cannot fly into the sun of the spiritual world. In both cases, it would instantly vaporize them. Even in the physical world, getting to the sun from earth orbit is actually harder than getting to the outer planets and beyond. We could do it if we really wanted to die in that particular way, but it wouldn’t be easy. In the spiritual world, I presume that it is impossible to get to the sun, just as it is impossible to actually kill ourselves in the spiritual world.
As for astral travelers believing that they’ve experienced the true height of all experiences, I think there’s a lot of ego and hubris in it. Our ego wants to be able to think of ourselves as the greatest and highest. When it comes to spiritually oriented people, our ego wants us to think of ourselves as the most spiritual of all, and of having had the highest possible spiritual experiences. When I hear spiritual guru types saying they’ve experienced the highest spiritual enlightenment or bliss or all-knowingness, I don’t think, “Wow, there’s someone who’s highly spiritual.” Instead, I think, “Wow, there’s someone who has a big ego.” Truly spiritual people are humble. They don’t spend their time talking about how they are the most enlightened, spiritual person in the universe.
Beyond that, it is perfectly possible for unspiritual people to have highly spiritual experiences. That’s because our thinking mind can rise up above the level of our heart, which is our true self. At the time of the (metaphorical) Flood in the early chapters of Genesis, God changed our psychology so that our head and our heart can operate semi-independently from one another. (See: “Noah’s Ark: A Sea Change in the Human Mind.”) Specifically, God made it possible even for selfish, egotistical people to learn and experience truth, including spiritual truth. God did this to make it possible for us to be reformed and reborn spiritually. If our thinking mind could not rise up above the level of our heart, our selfish, egotistical heart would drag our mind down to its level, and we would never even learn and understand that there is a higher path for us to travel.
Having high astral experiences is sort of like seeing photographs of the top of a mountain. Actually getting there requires the hard work of climbing the mountain. If an astral traveler sees and experiences highly spiritual realms, that doesn’t mean the astral traveler is highly spiritual. It means that the astral traveler has been given a vision of what life can be for those who are willing to do the hard work to make it a reality in their own lives. At that point, it’s up to the astral traveler to decide whether to be highly egotistical about being very, very spiritual, or whether to roll up the ‘ol sleeves and get to work on actually becoming spiritual. In my experience, a few too many of them avoid the hard work and choose the ego route.
In the afterlife, it will not be what we know and have experienced in our mind that counts. It will be what’s in our heart that counts. If we haven’t done the work of lifting our heart up to the level of our spiritual knowledge and experience, we will lose all that knowledge and enlightenment, and will sink down to the low, egotistical level of our heart. In other words, we will not make our bed in heaven, but in hell.
Hi Anton,
On your second question:
I would want to see exactly what those passages in Swedenborg say. I do not think it is an either/or situation. Either you appreciate beauty because of its spiritual significance, or you’re unspiritual, worldly, and selfish. After all, everything in this world also has a spiritual significance, and we don’t have to know what it is, or even know that something has a spiritual significance, to see that it is beautiful (or ugly). Also, angels don’t automatically know the spiritual significance of everything they see. Maybe the highest angels do, but lower angels commonly do not have that level of spiritual vision and insight. Yet they can still appreciate a beautiful park, lake, or forest.
Not every angel in heaven is even “spiritual” as we usually think of that world. Angels in the lowest heaven are “natural” or “earthly” angels. They mostly focus on outward actions, without having any particular insight into their deeper meanings. These are “blue collar angels.” They are good people who enjoy doing a day of useful work that is helpful to other people, but they don’t inquire into the deeper meanings behind it. They are not selfish and worldly. They are not focused on getting power, wealth, and pleasure for themselves. They do love their neighbor, and they want to serve their neighbor. But they do so in practical, external ways rather than in spiritual and heavenly ways, as the higher angels do.
Similarly, it is not necessary for us to understand all the spiritual meanings in a park or a lake or a mountain to appreciate its beauty. It is beautiful because it corresponds to spiritually beautiful things. Even just experiencing it will cause some of that spiritual beauty to rub off on us, as long as our mind and heart are not closed to the beauties of loving God and the neighbor.
Hi Anton,
On your third question-ish thing:
In that particular story, I don’t think the angels themselves had the experience of being in carriages. This was just how they looked from a distance. This is a very common phenomenon in the spiritual world. From a distance people look like what their thoughts, feelings, and actions correspond to, but close up they appear like themselves as human beings.
For example, from a distance the highest, heavenly angels often look like infants or little children, but close up they look like adults. Meanwhile, from a distance some types of evil spirits look like satyrs, but up close they look human. From a distance, people having a raucous debate may look like a crashing thunderstorm, but up close they look like people debating. And so on.
This doesn’t mean people in heaven can’t ride in carriages, or airplanes, if they want to. Just that from a distance, whatever conveyance or place they may be in, they will appear as what their current thoughts, feelings, and activities correspond to.
Does this answer whatever your question was? 😛
Hi Lee,
an american hindu teacher named Sivaya Subramuniyaswami (dude, what a tongue-twister…😅) talked about the states of consciousness in a newspaper called “hinduism today”. He referred to quote: “seven planes of spiritual suffering and seven higher ones of spiritual bliss”. I always thought of, in hinduism, seven planes on itself, which could be the three hells in Swedenborg’s writings, the world of spirits and the three heavens. (This may be so because astral travelers don’t have a sense of the role of the middle plane or World of Spirits.) What would you say?
Spiritual/Heavenly names are representing the whole character and all the deeds of the person that has this name. If you just hear the name of an Angel you already know: “Ok, that’s how much divine gifts she let’s in, she loves children, tennis and animals. (Or something like that.) But if someone wants to give names completely arbitrary, because of, I dunno, for example to name a country or airline (or something) in a game or something.(..or…some…thing…😆) Does the lack of active outer memory make that impossible or will the Angel or spirit still be able to use the conept of arbitrary naming, if it’s for something pretty…insignificant.
Kind wishes
Hi Anton,
It sounds like Sivaya Subramuniyaswami is saying that there are seven planes in what Christians would call heaven, and another seven in what Christians would call hell. That’s not necessarily wrong. Swedenborg mostly talks about three, but he also talks about heaven reflecting a human being on a macro scale. Eastern religion has an idea of seven chakras distributed along the centerline of the human body. These would also correspond to different levels of heaven, and in its distorted mirror image, seven levels of hell.
Though it’s good to have the general, simplified view of the spiritual world, it’s also good to realize that the spiritual world is immensely complex. Swedenborg’s three levels of heaven correspond to head, torso, and limbs. But the body is far more complex than that generalized picture of it.
About names, although Westerners traditionally don’t think much about the meaning of the names they give to their children, I don’t think those names are actually arbitrary. For example, it is common to name children after parents, grandparents, and other loved relatives. That in itself has significance and meaning. I think that if we delved into the various names people “arbitrarily” give to children, towns, airlines, and so on, we’d find that they do all have deeper meanings to them.
PS: Yes, your last answer was understandable. You did wrap your head around what I was trying to ask pretty well.🙂
PPS:
I heard of a woman who had an NDE while the Iraq-War and in her book “Application of impossible things”, she says: “I retreated to a deep place on what I’ll refer to…as another vibrational dimension to recuperate and restore energies. Other being assisted with this, doing most of the work, while I entered a sort of spiritual deep rest state. From a physical point of view, this lasted many centuries, within less that a moment.
I’m not sarting a conversation about the time-experience, but what are your thoughts on the other stuff?
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
It sounds like a more spiritual version of what physiologists know about the human body: that sleep is a vitally needed state for the body to recuperate, repair, and restore itself.
PPPS: I can quite easily fixate my thinking on the fact that living in the present moment, just going from one stare to another can help to understand the concept of eternity, more so than time conepts, like fixed intervals of time. And I understand the cyclic nature of our learning and spiritual growing process, but I can’t really wrap my head around the fact that there supposedly an IN-FI-NITE number of things to learn FOR-EVER! Like, could you give some examples? Or would that just freak me out even more?😅 Or could you explain it in a way, thar I can wrap my head around it in a way that sticks? Maybe in the same way I understand eternity on itself? The same applies to the houses in Heaven. I just CANNOT understand how those can keep becoming more beautiful and enchanting FOREVER! Like, isn’t there gonna be a point where it’s like, “Oh, I got 12 Billion flowers in 2000 gardens and my house is a mansion in beaty-rate 30 quadrillion with 100000 square-yards and it would take 2 hours to walk to the next house…” Ok, that seems a bit dramatic but…you get the gist…
PPPPS: Swedenborg describes every community of Angels being completely different. Hence every Angel has a whole different experience of Heaven. But since there are infinte things to learn, will there be some things that Angels will never learn? Maybe because they love knowing this or that thing and it’s present in their hobbies or even their day-to-day work live. Since not all Angels go to the highest Heaven eventually. Fo instance, if somone had really treasured all the different biomes in the world and loved travelling to other ones. In Heaven, tho, landscapes and biomes that appear or manifest do that, because of the feelings felt by the Angels. So if this guy becomes a, let’s say, spiritual Angel, can he still treasure all the different landscapes, there, like on earth? Of course he can, but I mean, will he still travel to (or even imagine those, to be there)…let’s say, a savannah or jungle, while living on a “moderate-climate-” mountain. Or will his loves, in that state, already have been rearranged, in a way, so that he is totally content with treasuring the landscape, that he lives in? I think, I already asked you, whether this is technically possible, but this time I want to get at, like, would some Angels do that, or do they not care about that all? Or another way of asking this question would be: “Will being able to visit other beatiful landscapes, in Heaven, that we treasured on earth help us being happy (for some of us), if that’s something we love or will Angels only love landscapes in which they can see a reflection of their own heart and fellings, because that’s what making (some of) these Angels feel happy in the first place (even for the Angels who REALLY, REALLY loved all landscapes on earth). So: Is that related to our ruling love? Because, in some places he says, every Angel is different in what they truly love. And in other places he seemds to indicate that all Angels love their environment ONLY because they know what it represents just like they all speak the same language.
PPPPPPPPP…*crash*…oh, looks like my phone broke…just kidding😆
Anyway, this time, I’ll keep it short, I PROMISE!😁
Angels and spirits who have good will and a good heart will eventually acknowledge the thruth, God, The Divine plan and so on. But there ARE people or spirits even in the spiritual world who believe all sorts of things. I believe, we talked about this very early. But Swedenborg says that ALL Angels, as soon as they step over the line between the World of spirits and Heaven, will accept, that everything the have, they are and they feel, is a gift from the Lord. Tho, Ziewe talked about going to a ‘higher astral level’ that seemed like a Heaven in Swedenborg’s theology. (Although I’m wrong or the person came there through a meditation) There he met a chinese spiritual teacher who taught him a meditation technique that allowed him to open his heart chakra to…I actulaly dunno, to what?😆 Anyway, not important, what I’m trying to get at here, is that this meditation teacher seemed like an Angel. It’s one thing, if an Angel tells an astral traveler something that simply verifies what they already believe, but then seeming like having grown up in that same believe on earth and still believing it in Heaven and ACTIVELY interacting and even TEACHING this believe or idea to others. I, unfortunately, can’t remember, in which of his videos, he reported this experience, but I guess, you wouldn’t have been very keen on watching it.😅
Anyhow, would you share your general thoughts, that came to mind?
Best wishes
Hi Anton,
So basically you’re asking: Would you just give your general thoughts about multiple massive questions, in 100 words or less? 😀
Well, let’s take ’em one at a time. And no promises about the 100 words. 😉
About grasping infinity, we can’t actually do that because our created human mind is finite, not infinite. However, we can get some sense of it from many examples. Swedenborg gives several in True Christianity #32, among which is this one:
He goes on to give an example from astronomy, citing the “infinite” stars out there, each with planets and—he believed—people. Leaving aside the aliens, every time astronomers think they are getting a handle on how stars and planets work, something brand new comes up in the data that they can’t explain, and they have to go back to the drawing board to figure out this new thing, and how it fits with or modifies what they knew before.
Just the other day I was watching an interview about how stellar scientists used to think that white dwarf stars would cool down evenly over trillions of years, but when they observed actual white dwarf stars, they found that they hit a plateau in their cooling process in which they stayed at the same temperature for a billion years or more before resuming their cooling process. This was completely unexpected. But it did lead to an entirely new idea about what’s going on inside white dwarf stars when they hit the temperature at which they start to make the transition from a liquid to a solid state. In case you’re interested:
Like water congealing into ice, there is a point at which the water just sits there at the freezing temperature until enough energy has been removed that the entire quantity of water has turned into ice. Before and after that point, there is a smooth transition from warmer to colder. But at that point, there is a plateau in the temperature curve until the transition is complete.
This is just one aspect of one type of star. Multiply that by all the types of stars, planets, dwarf planets, asteroids, and every other object we’re aware of out there in the physical universe, and Swedenborg’s statement that “every academic discipline can grow to an infinite extent” starts to sound realistic. There is simply no end to the new knowledge we can gain about how the physical universe works on the macro level. And that’s just one branch of one science.
This, I hope, gives you at least one example of what it means that there are infinite things that we can learn, in a process that can continue forever.
As for angels houses, remember, space and time don’t exist in the spiritual world. When angels’ houses and gardens become more and more beautiful, that doesn’t mean that they keep getting bigger and bigger. Yes, they might sometimes get bigger. And sometimes they might get smaller. Either way, their beauty will be a matter of quality, not quantity. If a garden of poppies is replaced by a garden of chrysanthemums, the garden hasn’t gotten any bigger. But the flowers in the garden have gotten more complex and beautiful. And of course, flower gardens commonly consist of more than one type of flower. There is no end to the increase in beauty that is possible even in a very small garden. Ditto for a house.
Japanese gardens and houses, in particular, are well-known for achieving exquisite beauty in a very small space. And I doubt that any Japanese gardener or architect will ever say, “I have reached the end of possible increase in beauty. Nothing more beautiful could ever exist.” Even if one of them did say that, he or she would probably wake up the next morning with an entirely new idea that goes beyond any design that he or she had ever created before.
Hi Anton,
On your second question, about seeing many different landscapes:
Yes, this is quite possible. Apparently many spirits from our planet quite like to travel far and wide in the spiritual world, just as many people do during their lifetime on earth. The spirits from (as Swedenborg believed) the planet Mercury also love to travel all around the spiritual world. Swedenborg himself traveled extensively both in the physical world and in the spiritual world. He was quite fond of traveling.
I wouldn’t say that every community of angels is completely different. In the physical body, there are many cells of particular types, such as muscle cells or bone cells or nerve cells, that share common characteristics with other cells of the same type, while being quite different from cells of a different type. So there are many communities of angels that are fairly similar to one another, having relatively minor differences, while there are other groups of communities that are quite different from these ones, but are generally similar to one another.
Also in the human body, many cells stay put in the body, but there are other cells, such as red blood cells and white blood cells, that are traveling all around the body all the time. Correspondingly, some angels prefer to be rooted in one place, whereas others have the wanderlust.
For people who love seeing different landscapes, there will be no end to different regions and areas of heaven to visit, each with its own types of landscapes and beauty. Still, just as on earth, there are general types of landscapes, such as forests, plains, hills, mountains, lakes, rivers, deserts, and every combination of these. Not every landscape will be completely different from every other landscape. Most will fall into some general type of landscape, but each will have its own particular beauty. Yes, forests are mostly just trees. But no two forests are ever exactly the same, and no two forests ever have exactly the same kind of beauty. Ditto every other kind of landscape.
Hi Anton,
On your final question, I don’t see meditation and chakras as being in conflict with beliefs that are more common in the West, such as a belief that Jesus is God. The world of the mind, which is the spiritual world, is every bit as broad and varied as the physical world, and even more so. There is room for many different types of religious belief and practice, all revolving around the central figure and reality of God. Some of them can’t easily coexist with one another in the same space. But that’s not a problem, since the spiritual universe is even more vast than the physical universe. It has plenty of room for people whose beliefs don’t dovetail so well with one another’s each to have their own huge area where they can follow their particular beliefs and practices in peace.
This is in contrast to evil and falsity, which have no place in heaven at all. In general, something is good and true if it revolves around loving God and loving the neighbor. Something is evil and false if it is entirely focused on loving oneself and loving worldly pleasures, possessions, and power.
There is nothing inherent in meditating on the chakras that is incompatible with loving God and loving the neighbor. In fact, meditation can give people who are into it a sense of the presence of the divine, and of the interconnectedness of all human beings on a spiritual level. Those who practice meditation can grow in spiritual understanding and peace based on it. Those who do not practice meditation have different ways of growing in spiritual understanding and peace. Every variation simply adds to the overall fullness and perfection of heaven.
PPP…I think, that’s not necessary anymore…XD
Will people, in Heaven, still live in familiar surroundings, tho? For example, someone from the Balkans will live on a farm near the ocean that has much in common with the farm where he lived on earth? Or a Massai, will he live in a savannah-village? Swedenborg says the reason, why things in Heaven look so…familiar, is, sorta, because of what we’re used to. So, we can travel to places, that look like from Star Wars or Super Mario, but we wouldn’t actually feel very comfortable LIVING there, you know what I’m saying? Unless, of course, there are Angels who are fascinated so much with this stuff that they would want to live there, just like in this world there are, for example, Americans, who get so in touch with outback, that they move to Australia. But I’m talking about the majority of people.
Hi Anton,
I do think that people who are used to a particular type of surroundings, and enjoy living in those surroundings, will continue to live in similar surroundings in the spiritual world. Swedenborg talks about a spiritual London, for example, where people from this world’s London go after they die.
On the other hand, people who have itchy feet and want to live in some other neighborhood or some other part of the world will find, in heaven, a neighborhood or area that fulfills what they are looking for. It’s all based on what our heart desires, and our mind pictures as prompted by our heart’s desires.
As you say, most people are content to live in their familiar surroundings, among the people they know and are familiar with. As I bicycle around different neighborhoods in my favorite form of physical recreation, I see people living in their particular neighborhood, calling out to their neighbors and chatting with them, and enjoying the people and the life that they are familiar with.
Other people are more adventurous and want to travel and see new things, eventually settling in a place far from where they were born, or even continuing to move around from one part of the world to another. Each person is different, which means that each person will have a different trajectory in life. But people are also social animals, so many people prefer to follow a trajectory that is in company with other people of similar background and character.
Basically whatever type of life you want, assuming it’s a good life, you can have that life in heaven.
Hi Lee, do you have any thoughts on the topics in the latter two comments?
Hi Anton,
I’m getting there!
Hi Lee,
thank you for your *short* answers.😄No, really, I mean it, man! Thank you so much!😀Swedenborg described Angels coming back into the World of spirits temporarily for purification processes, because a situation stirred something inside them that led an ego-something inside the Angel to come out. Because of that he/she goes through this cycle. And this keeps going on forever, and the Angels continue to shed negative ego-aspects. But my questions are, one, how are there INFINTE aspects of our ego that we can continue to shed? You said, that we can’t grasp eternity with our minds, but can you give an explanation on this sort of conundrum anyway? And two, there are some non-heavenly aspects to our selfs that we realize we have, still in Heaven, but which we don’t want to shed. Will we gradually do that anyway, or is this part of our free-will to remain in this state…as long as it doesn’t harm anybody of course!😁
Best wishes and a good weekend
Hi Anton,
You’re welcome. And yes, sometimes I get a bit carried away with these Q&As! 😉
I would not say that there are infinite aspects of our ego that we can continue to shed. We are finite beings, not infinite beings. Perhaps a better word is that there are endless aspects of our ego that we can continue to shed.
We loosely say that we live to eternity, but like an asymptotic curve that never actually reaches the line it is approaching, we never actually reach eternity. No matter how long we live in the spiritual world, it is always a finite amount of time—or really, the spiritual equivalent of time, which is the state of our understanding and accumulated experience. This means that in relation to eternity, there is always an infinite amount of further “time” beyond where we are now, even if we have lived through a quadrillion times a quadrillion spiritual “years.”
A better way to think of this is that our character is cumulative, so that everything we have ever thought, wanted, said, done, or experienced is a permanent part of it. This includes the bad parts of our character. Even if we have made the choice for good, those bad parts are still part of us. What happens when we regenerate (are spiritually reborn) is not that we get rid of them, but that we push them toward the side. We don’t actually “shed” them. We only move them farther away from our conscious daily life, into the recesses of our conscious or subconscious mind.
It really is like an asymptotic curve. No matter how far to the side we push them, they never actually reach the boundary of our character, still less do they ever get pushed outside that boundary. They just continue to move farther and farther away from the center, where we live most of our life.
As for non-heavenly aspects of ourselves that we don’t want to shed, that could go in two directions.
One direction is aspects of ourselves that are evil, and conflict with our good and heavenly self.
It is true that we by ourselves don’t want to shed these, because by ourselves (i.e., without God), we are nothing but evil, and we enjoy that evil. But when, during our lifetime on earth, we have chosen good over evil, and God over self, God gives us a new “heavenly ego” that no longer wants the evil things that we enjoy when our back is turned to God. This means that angels, when they see these things in themselves, dislike them and want to be rid of them. It doesn’t mean they have no attraction to them at all. Rather, their attraction to them is a pale and distorted shadow compared to their love for God and the neighbor.
The other direction it could go is that these are outward pleasures that aren’t particularly spiritual or heavenly, but that are also not evil. Unlike aspects of our character that are actually evil, which involve putting our own wealth, pleasure, and power above other people, these are simply outward enjoyments that are benign in themselves even if they don’t involve doing something for someone else.
A contemporary example would be single-player video games, which are an outward pleasure that does not involve a relationship with anyone else. Assuming the game itself is not putrid, there’s no harm in these games. They’re just pleasures that people enjoy in their off time. In a roundabout way they actually do serve the neighbor by giving our mind a break so that we can relax and rejuvenate, and have fresh energy to get on with the tasks of the next day. Ditto for eating, sleeping, exercising, playing sports, and all sorts of other physical activities.
Hi Lee,
I just was reading some older comments and realized that I linked you multiple-video playlist of the conversations of Ziewe and Marable, (maybe the latter one you haven’t heard of before,) two astral travelers discussing their experiences of the afterlife. Maybe you could watch them gradually, but for now, I still can’t understand the first section of this video:
Maybe you could share your thoughts on the subjects, but the “artificial entities” sound sort off woo-woo to me…(What the hell’s that?!)I think I asked you the question about the children already, but what’s that all about? I mean, it’s gotta have some meaning why it appears to Mike Marable and Jurgen Ziewe, because in the afterlife you cam’t just simply be told: “You’re wrong!” Or are these Angels that appear as something in the World of spirits (for example butlers)? Are those all illusions? Or are correspondences the reason why? I remember Swedenborg saying once that children (and parents) in a family correspond to the will to do good (and the actual doing of those goods).
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
In general, since these experience come from astral travel or out-of-body experiences, I don’t assume that they represent waking experience in the spiritual world, but rather spiritual visions. It may not always be easy to distinguish the two, since even waking experience in the spiritual world is much more malleable and responsive to our mental states than waking experience here in the physical world. Nevertheless, a vision or dream is not the same thing as walking around in the spiritual world in our spiritual body, using our spiritual senses as we interact with our surroundings.
Indeed, in the video Marable doesn’t present the experience he had as a waking experience in the spiritual world. Rather, he says that a deceased person took him into a “consensus reality.” I don’t know exactly what he means by that, but presumably it is some sort of constructed reality. Constructed, that is, by the mind of the person who took him there. Though the “consensus” part might mean that it is created by more than one mind. At any rate, it seems clear enough that this is a constructed reality, not the ordinary waking reality of the spiritual world.
To use the most obvious example from our earthly novelistic creations, it seems that he’s talking about something like the Star Trek holodeck, where whole worlds can be created based on what human beings program into the computer that runs the holodeck. In the holodeck, there are indeed “constructed” human beings who aren’t real humans. They are “avatars” created by the program.
I find it interesting that Marable talks about how when he presses these human figures, they “only go so deep.” In other words, they don’t have the completeness of an actual human being. This would include the “son” that this deceased person had in this “consensus reality.” So yes, these would be correspondences of thoughts and feelings that people in the spiritual world have, not actual human beings.
Hi Lee,
if I had to explain to someone, why Swedenborg is worth paying more attention to, than astral travelers, like Ziewe, Marable, Nicholls, Ferrari or Wolff, would you have some tips?
I, of course, understand, that Swedenborg had a whole other experience, as he was conscious in the physical AND spiritual world at once, while astral travelers completely shut their physical senses and have no actual sensation of the other world while waking consciousness, but could you give a brief overview (or something)?
I’m sure, the answer could be the material for a whole post, but I have time to read your answer!😉
Happy Easter, blessings!😊
Hi Anton,
Give this post a whirl, and see if it does it for you:
Do the Teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg take Precedence over the Bible?
See especially the section titled, “Swedenborg’s experience in the spiritual world was unique in known history.”
Happy Easter!
Also,
I was wondering, is the “sky” in heaven blue? Apart from the rainbow heaven, of course😅. But I just realized that Ziewe often uses a kind of red for the sky in his depictions. Sometimes, like in the latest Video, I linked you, he uses blue or a familiar yellowy sky, but…yeah, sort of an extra conundrum of mine…🙃
Kind wishes
Hi Anton,
I presume that at least for people from our planet, who are used to a blue sky, the sky will be blue in heaven. If people from some other planet have a sky that is a different color, they’ll probably have the same color sky in heaven that they’re used to. And then there are people who like to think of themselves as breaking the mold. I suppose they’ll have any color of sky except blue! 😉
Hi Lee,
(Since it was Easter…😄)
I watched a OTLE-show on the Swedenborgian meaning of Easter. So, appearently, while Jesus was in the spirtual world after the crucifixion and before his resurrection, he sort of, helped to restructure the spiritual world for earth’s spirits. There wasn’t really a spiritual or natural Heaven, and this helped people who couldn’t be in the highest Heaven, to form a new Heaven, the (NEW BIOME INTRODUCING!😅 Spiritual Heaven.
(Sidenote: He also talked about the lower earth. Do you have thoughts on it? Because Swedenborg says that Jesus basically sweeped up the lower earth, but NDErs and astral travelers still describe something similar existing. For example, I don’t know if you remember, but I talked to you about Ziewe, leading a woman out of a hell-like place into a more heaven-like place. Maybe she was in the lower earth before?)
But the question is, is the way it is now (three heavens, three hells, world of spirits in between) the way it’s akways gonna be or is this structure maybe someday getting reorganized in a way. (Or maybe in a way we can’t see? So, if someone would become a spiritual Angel, if there was a fourth heaven opened (or something…), he/she wouldn’t really…it would really affect their life.
Or is the way the afterlife is structured now the way it was meant to be from the start, and the minds of the people from that time weren’t really able anymore to work in the system in place?
Swedenborg-scholar Dr. Jonathan Rose had a theory on primitive pleasures/hobbies. (IT dosen’t mean, that it’s the result of hard studying of his, it sort of came to his mind when discussing hobbies in Heaven. He is really deep in researching correspondences and his theory’s, that primitive “hobbies” like collecting stink-bugs, for example, turn into things that correspond, that have quote: “The same delight in it.” But you might not be literally keep collecting stink-bugs in the afterlife. But the same would apply to some bigger pleasures, he gives the example of cultivating earth here, turning into: “Let’s say, cultivating Heaven in the minds of the people there.” I think, maybe it can be sometimes, that pleasures turn into things that correspond, but surely not that often or with that many things. What is your view?
Some people have a mental illness. Some of them, for example many who have Autism or AD(H)S, say that they don’t want to let go of that, because that had made them become who they are, but some of them want nothing more, than to let go of it, many with PTSD, for instance. Dr. Rose thinks, that if this stuff is imprinted on your heart, the Lord can provide in a way, so that it can stay with you, but if you don’t want to drag it around forever, you can let it go. Any thoughts?
Kind wishes
Hi Anton,
Well, that’s quite an Easter laundry list! 😀
I would want to see what that OTLE video said. But the “harrowing of hell,” as it is traditionally called, is mostly a traditional Christian idea. It does not have much basis in the Bible. Just a few vague passages that are interpreted to mean that Jesus accomplished various things in the spiritual world between his crucifixion and his resurrection. But I think he did these things during his conscious life on earth up to and including his time no the cross before he died. Perhaps he was conscious and doing things in the spiritual world between his death and his resurrection. But I tend to think the consciousness of his divine humanity was quiescent (sleeping) during that time.
At any rate, it is true that Jesus reordered everything in heaven, the world of spirits, and hell as part of the Incarnation and glorification. But I believe this was a process taking place over several years at least, and during his entire lifetime on earth, not only in a few days between his death and resurrection.
The lower earth continues to exist in the spiritual world to this day. But it is no longer clogged up with evil spirits who are avoiding moving on to their eternal homes in hell. Rather, it is a place of processing for recently arrived spirits who are either on their way to hell but haven’t yet cast off all of the good exterior they had affected while on earth, or who are on their way to heaven but must first cast off bad habits and relationships that they had formed on earth. In terms of human physiology, you can think of it is the lower bowels where the final bits of goodness are squeezed out of the mostly digested material, and the remainder is prepared for excretion. Since the most recent Last Judgment, which took place during Swedenborg’s lifetime, it is no longer clogged up, and is functioning normally.
Overall, there always have been and always will be three heavens, or three general levels of heaven, corresponding to heart, head, and hands in pop-psychology lingo. There always have been and always will be three general types of people: the lovers, the thinkers, and the doers. Even if a new heaven (or hell) is formed, it will be formed within one of these three levels, or perhaps spanning two or more of them. It will not create a whole new level of heaven (or hell).
I suppose people could keep collecting stink bugs in heaven if they wanted to. But they’d probably have a pretty good idea of what stink bugs correspond to, and this would be one of the main reasons they found them so fascinating.
It’s actually rather difficult to figure out exactly what Swedenborg means when he says that earthly occupations and activities are changed into corresponding ones in heaven. After all, he describes many of the same occupations in heaven that we have on earth, albeit they tend to be the ones that involve thinking and relationships, such as teachers, ministers, guides, and prison guards. These occupations all have their correspondences, but what people are actually doing seems to be quite similar to what people in those occupations do here on earth. Honestly, I’m not sure what exactly Swedenborg means by that saying. It may be hard to fathom until we actually arrive in the spiritual world.
And I tend to agree with Jonathan Rose that people who cling to their handicaps may still have them in the spiritual world because they want to have them, but people who dislike them will quickly lose them. However, even people who cling to their handicaps will become self-responsible adults who are able to direct their own lives. What may happen with some of them, though, is that they are more innocent and willing to entrust their lives to the Lord than most people who grew up as “normies.” This would place them in some of the higher heavens, which is also where infants and young children go when they die.
PS: You said that maybe the Swedenborg quote could help you make a better statement at delight for the eye vs. delight for the mind, when it comes to observing beatuiful things. It’s in Arcana Coelestia §1622. I don’t have the time to write all of it down, but maybe YOU have the time to watch the part “The Landscape” from this video. The quote comes up in 26:49. https://www.youtube.com/live/D3BmPm7DPv0?si=3cGnDTkdEhxYos0XMaybe it could be, that the natural Angels don’t have any concepts of the spiritual meaning behind these things, Spiritual Angels know about them, some of them think about it more often than others, and heavenly Angels think about them all the time? Just a theory…I also would like to note that sometimes, particularly more often in his earlier works (including Arcana Coelestia) Swedenborg uses the terms “good spirits”, “angelic spirits” and “Angels”, instead of “Natural”, “Spiritual” and “Heavenly Angels”.
Also, I already read rhe article. Especially this section, because you linked it, like, half a dozen times, already to me.😆
While it IS pretty helpful, maybe you could just give, if there are some, any further thoughts on how Swedenborg’s experiences REALLY STOOD OUT. Because…today there are surely some people, who also reach a three-digit number of hours spent in the afterlife/spiritual world.
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
Hahaha! Then obviously you need to read it AGAIN!!! 😀
But seriously, I just don’t think anyone else’s experience in the spiritual world compares to Swedenborg’s. Even Ziewe seems to be engaging in “astral travel” rather than actually walking around in the spiritual world. He is seeing visions of things in the spiritual world, and even interacting with angels and spirits there, but it still seems to be in more of a dream state than in a fully waking state, as Swedenborg’s experience was.
Beyond that, I would simply suggest that you read Swedenborg’s descriptions of the spiritual world as found especially in Heaven and Hell and in his stories of experiences in the spiritual world scattered throughout his later works such as Marriage Love, Apocalypse Revealed, and True Christianity. Compare these to what Ziewe and others have said, and make up your own mind who you think provides the most comprehensive and accurate picture of the spiritual world.
About spiritual landscapes, I would say, rather, that natural angels know beautiful gardens correspond to spiritual things, but have to ask spiritual angels what they actually correspond to. Spiritual angels think about these things all the time, learning and understanding more and more what everything in these beautiful gardens correspond to. And heavenly angels don’t have to think about these things at all. They simply see beautiful gardens and have an immediate perception of their spiritual meaning. In fact, they don’t really think of it as spiritual meaning at all. The things they see are simply alive and spiritual for them, each in its own unique way, each telling its own spiritual story. In their mind, there is no distinction between what they see and its spiritual meaning. One is a living embodiment of the other. Heavenly angels don’t study and think about things as spiritual angels do. They immediately perceive things from an inner source, which is ultimately the Lord within them.
And yes, at first Swedenborg didn’t identify inhabitants of the lower two levels of heaven as angels. Only the inhabitants of the highest heaven who actually are the ones who have fully become angels. That’s why it’s the heavenly heaven. It is the real heaven, where people who have gone through the full process of regeneration, or spiritual rebirth, live.
Later, though, Swedenborg settled on a more ordinary and culturally acceptable nomenclature of calling everyone who lives in any level of heaven “angels.” Still, it’s good to keep in mind that angels of the lower two heavens are people who never completed the full six days of their own spiritual creation so that they could arrive at the seventh day of spiritual rest, which is the state of the angels of the heavenly heaven.
Hi Lee,
a comment is probably following tomorrow, as thoughts to your answer.😉
Though, today, I have another question: Many NDErs are given their questions answered. Sometimes from Angels, relatives or from God or Jesus. However, a Christian pastor, named Howard Storm, says that he asked Jesus about reincarnation. (Now, I know, you probably are pretty annoyed by this, so the question shall be another…😅) Jesus supposedly answered, that there’s no underlying system, or that it’s not on the regular basis, which Storm also teaches, today. BUT Jesus said that SOMETIMES it DOES happen. For example when unborns die still in the womb, or newborns.
If it is a false concept, then why did Jesus give this kind of confusing answer and what are your thoughts on the answer itself?
Best wishes
Hi Anton,
I doubt Jesus gave a confusing answer. I suspect Storm didn’t understand the answer.
And in general, we can’t accept everything anyone says Jesus told them. People have had “Jesus” tell them all sorts of things that are wrong, and even that are contrary to what the actual Jesus said in the Gospels.
In this case, it is certainly wrong because newborns who die go straight to the highest heaven, not back to earth.
It’s a vexed question what happens to those who die still in the womb. But I believe that at minimum, those that would be viable if they were born at that time instead of dying do have an eternal soul, and will grow up in heaven just like infants and children who die. Even if I am wrong about this, it is still not possible for any soul to reincarnate. That’s just not how it works.
OK, I have had the same thoughts, but I can’t wrap my head around the fact, that Storm’s experience of meeting Jesus and talking to him, was not quite real or at least not very “well-understood”, because he gives all this detail. There were so many questions that Jesus answered him. He claims, that Jesus and he were wandering about some earthly months or years through the realms of the spiritual world. I’m pretty confused about this now.🤨
He even appeared on OTLE-shows and always seemed like one of the people who had one of the realest or tangiblelest experiences with Jesus (For an NDEr). Maybe you could watch a video dedicated to Howard Storm’s NDE. The one I watched, actually, is actually 3 hours long, but I don’t want you to spend this much time. If you wanna give it a shot, you can just look it up.🙂 Maybe for you it actually stands in the line with most of the other NDEs, but I found his story being very remarkable. (Probably I formulated my last comment not so good, and maybe you heard of him before.)
If you think, you can shed light on this, please do.
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
I’ve watched a few clips of Howard Storm, but that’s about it. If you want to link that video for me, I’ll see if I can find time to listen to it while I’m doing other things. Without actually hearing him tell his story, I can’t give a very solid reaction to it.
However, in general, Jesus speaks in parables, and people commonly misunderstand those parables. Another way of saying this is that Jesus commonly (but not always) speaks in figurative language, but people who hear him often interpret it literally. Plus, if they are already leaning toward a particular point of view, they commonly bend what he says toward that pre-existing viewpoint, even if that’s not what Jesus actually said.
A perfect case in point is Jesus’ words about “marriage in the resurrection.” Even that title, commonly added to that section in modern Bibles, is misleading. Jesus doesn’t talk about “marriage in the resurrection.” He talks about getting married in the resurrection. And yet, for centuries “Christians” who have a pre-existing bias toward celibacy have misread his words, and have read him as saying something that he simply didn’t say. Jesus did not say that there is no marriage in heaven. (See: “Didn’t Jesus Say There’s No Marriage in Heaven?” and its follow-up article)
This is compounded by the fact that these people view marriage as a merely physical and social relationship, and not a spiritual relationship, so they read Jesus’ words literally, not spiritually. As a result, they have read what Jesus said, but have completely misunderstood and misinterpreted it to support an idea they already had in their head: that celibacy is better and more spiritual than marriage. This is the opposite of the truth. But for those who believe it, everything Jesus says seems to support it. (See also: “Didn’t Jesus Say it’s Better to be Celibate than Married?”)
I’ll have to watch the Howard Storm video, but since he was having a conversation with Jesus, and it presumably wasn’t written down, we probably don’t know what Jesus said to Storm. What we know is what Storm heard Jesus to say. Those two might not be the same thing.
Reincarnation is a physical-minded belief. If Jesus said something to Howard Storm about fetuses and babies being reborn, which will happen to them in heaven, Storm might have heard it as fetuses and babies being reincarnated. It’s a classic misunderstanding that has caused physical-minded people to read scriptures, both Eastern and Western, wrongly for thousands of years. Even the Eastern scriptures are talking about spiritual rebirth, not about reincarnation. But physical-minded people will read these statements as being about physical rebirth, not about spiritual rebirth. This is reflected in Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus in John 3:1–8 about being born again. Nicodemus heard Jesus’ words literally, but Jesus was speaking spiritually.
This, I suspect, is what happened in Storm’s conversation with Jesus—assuming it was a genuine encounter with Jesus. Jesus said something that was meant to be understood figuratively and spiritually, but Storm interpreted it literally, thus misunderstanding what Jesus was saying to him.
Infants who die are spiritually reborn in heaven. Like everyone else, they must overcome their natural tendencies toward selfishness and greed as they grow up. This is probably what Jesus was talking about in the conversation with Storm.
Hi Lee, I also wanted to ask you about your take on meditation, because I just realized, that Ziewe said, that he went beyond what Swedenborg calls Heaven and Ziewe the highest astral levels, into “higher states of consciousness”. He described meditating to the point, where he always had a higher state to reach, until there was/seemed to be none. What he reached was just…BEING. (You actually shared your thoughts on the losing of self-identification of Ziewe before, but this conundrum is a little different and brings some background with it) And I mean by that, that there was like nothing, that he was able to identify with. If the highest attainable state for a human being is Heaven and higher is only God, and God is the exact opposite of no identification at all, because he is the highest degree of self-identification. Was this never meant to happen? Did Ziewe step over a line, where there couldn’t be any identification at all, because it’s closed to humans? Why could what happened be the best thing for Ziewe? While he says, that he can still perform all the tasks, like work, talking and so on, but he has lost completely the sense of, “yeah, I am Jurgen. I am a human” because now he seems to sort of say “I’m consciousness and nothing else”Let’s see, if you can answer the question without having his word for it, and having to rely on my discription. It’s because tge video, I drew this topic from is not in english and there are no subtitles. If the answer can’t help my inner turmoil, then I guess I would have to go on the search for when he makes this points in one of his videos. Because this has AGAIN stirred some kind of anxiety-thingy inside me…Man, I’m so vulnerable…But unlike the last times it is actually something completely different about Ziewe’s teachings/experiences that I just…I’M SO TIRED! Sorry, that just had to come out.Maybe something that could help you is 8:30 from this video: https://youtu.be/p998pkuUZxY?feature=shared Just to get some idea. The diagram about his understanding of reality is not the actual description of his experiences, but maybe you can put this system into (visual) comparison with Swedenborg’s system. (Bearing in mind how I described he came to this conclusion) Most of the points discussed in the video are not of greater interest for this question. Howard Storm has to wait for now…
(Sidenote: I reflected many of Ziewe’s other experiences with Swedenborg’s concept and I feel like I understand them all. Thanks to you.😉)
Hopefully Swedenborg is right about the way we progress in Heaven, ’cause I’m sick of all this existential fear…😣
Blessings from the deepest bottom of my heart!
Hi Anton,
First, I would suggest that assuming you are not actively engaging in evil and destructive behavior (which I don’t think you are), a spiritual teaching or belief system should not strike existential fear into you. Paul said:
And Jesus said:
If a particular belief system causes you to be gripped by fear, that is prima facie evidence that something is wrong with that belief system. Perhaps you should stop listening to Ziewe, if that is the effect his teachings have on you?
About the chart in the video you linked, it strikes me more as a chart of stages of spiritual rebirth and growth than a chart of levels of the spiritual world—though there is some correlation between the two.
But more to the point, the idea of nothingness or complete lack of attachments as the ultimate goal of spiritual enlightenment does have some spark of truth behind it, but that spark of truth has been taken in the wrong direction.
According to Swedenborg, there are two types of “ego,” or sense of self-identity:
(Swedenborg uses the Latin word proprium, which is our sense of self or sense of identity, or what we claim as our own and as “me.”)
The first is entirely evil. This is what we must divest ourselves of in the process of regeneration, or spiritual rebirth. The second is good, because it is the presence of God and heaven in us.
The Buddhist idea that we should let go of all attachments is, I believe, all about letting go of our hellish sense of self. So far, so good.
Where it goes off the rails is when it stops there, leaving the person with no ego or identity at all. (Which, really, is impossible.) What’s meant to happen when we lay aside our hellish ego is not no sense of self at all, but rather having it replaced with a heavenly sense of self. That sense of self is all about living from love for God and the neighbor, as Jesus taught. It is about an outgoing love for others being first in our life, rather than an inward-looking love for ourselves and our own power, pleasure, and profit.
Ziewe seems to have had the experience of dropping his hellish ego (which doesn’t necessarily mean it’s gone; only that he’s experienced what it’s like to have it gone). But he doesn’t seem to know what is supposed to go in its place, which is the heavenly sense of self that God gives us as we push aside (from God’s power) that hellish and egotistical sense of self.
The goal of our spiritual journey is not nothingness and a complete loss of ego, but replacing our old selfish ego with a new spiritual and heavenly sense of identity based on our relationship with God and with our fellow human beings. Swedenborg says:
The angels of the highest heavens have a very clear sense of their own identity. Clearer than you or me or anyone else on this earth. They do not live in a void of nothingness and no attachments to anything. Rather, they live in a very detailed and active world, full of all sorts of different good things, engaging in all sorts of good and loving and healthful activities in surroundings that are far more detailed, varied, and real than anything we experience here on earth.
The idea that the ultimate goal is nothingness sounds to me a lot like the traditional Christian notion that we spend eternity in endless praise of God. The paintings of this show throngs of people all around God’s throne . . . and nothing else. No plants and animals. No houses and roads. No trees and gardens. No food and drink. Just an endless, repetitive, boring, empty church service.
Why does Ziewe come back from this state of nothingness and bliss? Because we humans can’t sustain such emptiness. We need to be active and engaged, thinking and doing, not spending endless time in emptiness. All this would lead to is the annihilation of us as living beings. Nothingness is . . . nothing. Which is probably what is striking you with existential fear. It is the fear of death—but in this case, not of physical death, but of the complete cessation of your consciousness and life.
No, no, no! That is a completely wrong understanding of what God created us for. God did not create us for nothingness, but for a full and happy life. Our time here on earth is preparing us for that life. We don’t suddenly have everything we know and love taken away from us after we die, so that everything we’ve done here is irrelevant and meaningless. No, what we have done here is elevated to a higher level, where it includes everything good that we know and love and do here on earth, but with far greater intensity and depth!
There is no need for fear when we know and understand what heaven is really like. And no, there’s nothing “beyond heaven.” Not for us, anyway. What’s beyond heaven is God. And though we will never reach God, we will always be traveling toward God, and we will always be in close relationship with God, because God has created us in the image and likeness of God so that we can have a relationship with God.
Everything and everyone we know and love here on earth will continue in the spiritual world. The spiritual world is not a vast emptiness, but a full and active world of human community, relationships, activities, work, relaxation, eating, sleeping, making love, and everything else that makes human life human.
Hi Lee,
thank you so much for your help!
I guess, I just have a major affection for the truth and this sometimes can’t keep me from just trying another Ziewevideo. 🥲
(Though I think that it’s slowly coming to a halt, since as you probably remember just not so long ago I was completely immersed in Ziewe’s teachings.)
What the main question was, though, is what you see meditation as. Because Ziewe sees it as the main tool to open higher levels. And I don’t know in which way this clashes with Swedenborg’s view of meditation. I know, that he used it to associate with certain spirits/Angels, which had the concept he meditated on as (one of) the primary focus of their life. For example, when he was meditating on the creation of the universe and then a certain group of Angels came to him and told him about the concept of state vs. time and space.
Ziewe seems to build his entire concepts on meditation and concentration on certain things. For example the chinese teacher (the same with the chakras) showed him symbols of “heavenly” language and each time he understood it better he was experiencing more knowledge. Not all of it but increasing. He describes it like waves of enlightenment and each wave getting bigger and bigger until he gets struck by tsunamis of enlightenment.
This sort of seems like your conversation with Sam about Tom Campbell, doesn’t it?
Another question about something I understood until now but after the introduction of a Swedenborgian concept don’t anymore:
Ziewe reported meeting his father, who passed away when he was nine. And he sort of shouted out: “Take me to my dad!” And he found himself in a field of a farm in eastern russia and saw two boys riding bycicles. And immediately he recognized one of them as his father. And this boy stopped (in his spirit/astral body), threw his bycicle away and said “…Jurgen?…” And the other one (in his spirit/astral body) parked his bycicle a little bit further and turned out to be HIS dad/Ziewe’s grandfather, who ALSO died, when his father was little. And they then talked to each other in spirit/their astral body.
Ziewe interpreted the story this way: “Both Ziewe’s father and HIS father reincarnated as brothers in eastern russia, to get to live together, what they really haven’t been able to do in their (last) earthly life.
I thought: “Oh, well, he just met his father who is in Heaven now and is living with his father and who appeared to him as a little boy in a far-russian-like landscape.” But then I stumbled across a Swedenborg-phrase. True Christianity §14:
“Quite often, in fact, I have been allowed to see of spirits of people who were still alive on earth. In some cases the spirits of these people were in Angelic communities, in other cases they were in hellish communities. I have been allowed to spend days talking with the spirits of people. It has amazed me that the people themselves still alive in the bodies were completely unaware that this was happening.”
What’s he saying here? Exactly the same thing, that allegedly happened to Ziewe; He talked to the spirit/astral body of his father while his father was actually living on earth, allegedly.
Please shed light on this conundrum!
Thanks again for all of your insights and answers and Kind regards
Hi Anton,
Perhaps Ziewe’s view of meditation is not so different from Swedenborg’s. I don’t know enough about Ziewe to say. But when Swedenborg speaks of meditation, it is almost always about deep concentration and contemplation on some specific subject. It is not the popular idea of meditation as emptying one’s mind and just letting things flow as they will.
About Ziewe, if he causes you consternation, my suggestion would be that you accept his experiences as genuine, but question his explanations of those experiences.
For my part, from what I’ve seen of Ziewe so far I believe he is sincere, and that his spiritual experiences are real, but that he is mistaken in some of his beliefs, which causes him to misinterpret some of what he is experiencing. For example, he believes in reincarnation, so he interprets his experiences as supporting reincarnation. And he seems to lack a concept of God, or at least a concept of a personal God, so he interprets his experiences as being about human enlightenment rather than about human relationships.
A case in point of Ziewe interpreting his experiences according to his pre-existing beliefs is thinking that when he met his father and grandfather as boys living in a rural Russian setting, this meant that they were actually living in rural Russia, and he was talking to their spirits similar to the Swedenborg quotation from True Christianity #14. But Swedenborg himself does not view this phenomenon as in any way connected to reincarnation. Rather, he said he was talking to the spirits of people who had not yet died. (And this is rather strange. In another place, Swedenborg says that when residents of the spiritual world try to talk to the spirits of people who are still living on earth, the spirits of those still-living people disappear from sight.)
From a Swedenborgian perspective, Ziewe was not talking to the spirits of his reincarnated father and grandfather. Rather, he was having a vision or dream of his father and grandfather representing something about how they are currently living in the spiritual world, or about how Ziewe himself thinks of them. This would not necessarily mean that his father and grandfather are literally boys living in a rural Russian-style landscape in heaven. But Swedenborg does say that from a distance, angels of the higher heavens appear as infants or children. Hhis father and grandfather appear as boys would be a representation of their sense of childlike happiness and wonder in their life in heaven. If Ziewe were to actually meet them in person in a waking state in the spiritual world, though they might appear as boys from a distance, when he got close to them they would look like young men, which is the usual state of men in heaven.
In general, Ziewe seems to be Eastern and Gnostic in his thinking. From what I can tell (not having a deep knowledge of Ziewe’s thought), he leans toward enlightenment as the primary goal human spiritual endeavors. This is different from a Christian view, which sees loving relationship with God and with our fellow human beings as the primary goal of human spiritual endeavors. Another way of saying this is that a Ziewe/Eastern/Gnostic system is centered on mind and intellect, whereas a Christian/Swedenborgian system is centered on heart and love. This difference leads to a different conception of what the spiritual realms are like, and what they are all about. It also leads to different interpretations even of the same spiritual experiences.
One thing I would like to add is, that Ziewe described his experience of enlightenment not as a nothingness, but actually the EXACT OPPOSITE.
It was more of a SOMETHING than any experience in the spiritual or ohysical world.
What he simply lost was his sense of self, and everything just become one and he lost the sense of this is this and that is that and I am me. But there was no distinction anymore.
Maybe the Heavenly proprium after death will fix this? Or did he go through the Heavenly proprium already, while being in what Swedenborg would call(, if he heard about Ziewe,) Heaven.
Best wishes
Hi Anton,
For created human beings, there is nothing beyond the heavenly proprium. At least, not anything that we can be conscious of. We do have an innermost soul that is beyond our consciousness. That is where God flows directly into us with love, wisdom, and life. From there these flow into the conscious parts of our heart and mind, where we can see and feel them.
Our heavenly proprium is the same as our ruling love, which in the fundamental nature of our character. For angels (evil spirits don’t have a heavenly proprium), this is some variation on love for the Lord and/or love for the neighbor. A specific person’s specific version of this is the central nature of his or her character. It is expressed in everything the person thinks, feels, says, and does. We created humans cannot lift our consciousness above that level.
However, we are able to briefly lift our thinking mind above the level of our heart. We can do this on earth, and presumably we can do this in heaven as well, as part of our process of regeneration, or of continued spiritual growth in heaven. Perhaps what Ziewe experienced was some levels of awareness beyond his current spiritual level.
In that case, it might seem ineffable and beyond ordinary human perception. Spirits and angels who are lifted up to a higher level than their own may perceive that higher level as empty and imperceptible at first. Only when their heart is lifted up to a state that harmonizes with that level can they begin to see all the things that exist there. But they can’t sustain it for long. Soon, they will eagerly desire to return to their own home, which is where their own heart is.
Ziewe does describe the spiritual realms as full and detailed, as you say. But from what you were saying earlier, it seemed that he reached some level where it went beyond all that. If I’m not misreading your words, then I suspect he simply went to a realm beyond the level of his own heart, and therefore could not perceive all the objects and details of that realm.
However, please correct me if I’m wrong about Ziewe’s experiences. I have no more knowledge of them than what you’ve said and the videos you’ve linked here for me to watch.
Of course, you’re free to explore and watch and read whatever you want. I was only suggesting that if Ziewe’s ideas are causing you angst, why subject yourself to that? Ziewe doesn’t seem to be a bad guy. But I think his conception of the universe is rather intellectual, when the real basis of the universe is not intellect, but love. A universe founded and centered on love is a far warmer and more inviting place than one founded and centered on intellect. And though it might seem counterintuitive, angels whose lives are focused on love and relationship are actually able to think more deeply than angels whose lives are focused on truth and intellect.
Will Ziewe’s views change after death? Perhaps. But not necessarily. Reincarnation and Gnosticism are not evil beliefs. They’re just lower-level beliefs than true Christianity. Reincarnation is a physical-minded belief. Gnosticism is a “spiritual” belief as compared to a “celestial” or heavenly belief. In other words, it is an intellect-centered belief rather than a love-centered belief.
Meanwhile, Jesus made it very clear that love is at the center of Christian belief and life. The most important commandments in the Scriptures, he said, are to love God and our neighbor. And he said that people would know we are his followers if we have love for one another. This is the highest level of spiritual attainment there is. There is nothing higher than love. That is the realm in which the highest angels live.
Hi Lee,
I see this phenomenon, that I get uncomfortable when I start to think about certain beliefs as the truth. Perhaps Ziewe is the most extreme case.
But I’d like to ask you, that if the light if Heaven distiguishes truth from falsity, then why do Angels believe these sort of things that I was talking to you, before? And the same would apply to Ziewe, I guess. You mentioned once, that Swedenborg sometimes got direct revelation from the Lord, but many times the light of Heaven itself distinguished truth from falsity for him. Yet, Ziewe reports, that he has been in the same kinds of realms that we would call Heaven. Shouldn’t the very Light of Heaven tell him, that this or that idea is right or wrong or am I mistaken? (Or something, with a slightly different terminology)
Alex Ferrari had recently made a point about Swedenborg allegedly not having any concept of reincarnation, that could stick or was presented to him in quite the right way, so that’s the reason, why he’d put the idea off as false. Any thoughts in that?
Do you have any concept of why and when the spirits of people disappear from sight when some spirit/Angel addresses them, but others (for example Swedenborg) could talk to them fully conscious? Has that something to do with the fact, that he himself (Swedenborg) was still living on earth?
Could it be that this state that we were talking about that Ziewe reached through meditation was this sort of dwelling of the Lord in his soul, but he experienced,…what he experienced…I don’t know hiw to express that, but I think you know what I mean…😅
Just by ANY means?
And; In many traditions (also in Ziewe’s ideas) you reincarnate at the point where your Karma from the earthly life is fulfilled. Is this sort of analogous to the process of us choosing Heaven or hell? Do you have some extra thoughts on the Karma-fulfilling-sorta-concept?
That’s it for now, I guess😁
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
I doubt that Ziewe experienced the realms of heaven that Swedenborg did. Astral traveling is not the same as being fully conscious in the spiritual world as if one were living there. Ziewe is an astral traveler. Swedenborg was able to be fully conscious in the spiritual world as if he were living there.
Also, not all angels are fully angels. As I think I mentioned before, initially Swedenborg used the term “angel” only for the angels of the highest, “heavenly” (traditionally “celestial”) level of heaven. The rest he had other terms for, such as “angelic spirits” and “good spirits.” That’s because only the angels of the highest heaven have gone through the full process of regeneration, or spiritual rebirth, by which we can reach our full potential as human beings.
For angels of the highest heaven, there aren’t “ideas” and “beliefs” as distinct intellectual things. Heavenly angels simply see or perceive from an inner knowing whether something is true or false, without having to think it out.
That’s not how it is for angels of the middle “spiritual” heaven—the ones Swedenborg initially didn’t call angels, but “angelic spirits.” Angels of the spiritual heaven do think things out and reason about whether they are true or false. That’s because they lack the inner perception of the heavenly angels. They can’t immediately tell whether something is true or false. They have to figure it out.
My sense of Ziewe is that if he is on the level of one of the heavens, it is not the highest heaven, but the middle heaven. If I am right about this (and of course, I could be wrong), Ziewe will not automatically see whether something is true or false because he is not in the full light of heaven, which is the light of the highest heaven.
In a few places Swedenborg even says that only the angels of the highest heaven see the spiritual sun in the sky. The angels of the lower heaven see the spiritual moon instead. I don’t necessarily take that in a doggedly literal way. I think the idea is that only the angels of the highest heaven have a direct view of God, and therefore a clear view of divine truth. Angels of the lower heavens see truth in a more indirect way, and they don’t necessarily always get it right. This, presumably, is why some of the things Swedenborg said he was “told from heaven” turned out not to be correct. (For example, that this or that group of spirits came from one of the other planets in our solar system, or from Earth’s moon.)
Placing Ziewe at the level of the middle heaven would also dovetail with Ziewe’s apparent lack of any strong sense of God and God’s presence. In all the Ziewe videos you sent me, God hardly even makes an appearance. And it is the angels of the highest heaven who are engaged in love for the Lord (God) first of all. The angels of the middle heaven are primarily engaged in love for the neighbor, which is a more intellectualized love, and which is what I sense from Ziewe. He seems to care a lot about spreading enlightenment to other people, but he doesn’t seem to have a living relationship with the Creator. (Again, I could be wrong about this. I’m just going by the few videos of his that I’ve seen so far.)
If my sense of Ziewe is correct, then he wouldn’t necessarily be able to distinguish false ideas from true ones in the light of heaven because he is not in the direct light of heaven, but only in an indirect one, which doesn’t give a clear and immediate sense of what is true, but requires us to think and reason about what is true and what is not. And in that light, we can come to faulty conclusions as well as sound ones.
There are certain basics, of course, that are fundamental to the life of all angels, such as the commandments in the Ten Commandments. But when it comes to different doctrines and dogmas, people believe many things that aren’t actually true, but that also don’t do a great deal of damage for them.
Reincarnation is such a belief. It’s not true. It’s a materialistic belief. But it’s also not highly damaging for people who are living at a level where it makes rational sense to them and seems to be better and more fair than a system that rejects reincarnation.
Reincarnation is also an “appearance of truth” in that the real truth underlying it is spiritual rebirth, which reincarnation physicalizes as physical rebirth. It can therefore serve a certain segment of the population as truth even though it is not actually true.
A Christian example of this same phenomenon is the common fundamentalist and evangelical Christian belief that there is going to be a literal Last Judgment and Second Coming in which the earth will be destroyed, and replaced by a new earth on which believing Christians, now resurrected, will live forever.
That’s not how it actually works. We live forever in the spiritual world, not in the physical world. But for Christians who cannot think spiritually, and who therefore think of spiritual things as wispy and insubstantial, believing in a future physical resurrection serves as truth. We actually are resurrected as solid, substantial beings, not as wispy ethereal ones. And we do live a very real and solid life. So for Christians who think physically, not spiritually, belief in a future physical resurrection is the best approximation of the actual truth that they’re capable of.
Similarly, people who believe in reincarnation generally think that once we’ve completed our spiritual journey, we reach a state of complete enlightenment and bliss beyond which there is nothing. For them to have any concept of continuing spiritual growth, they have to think of returning back to this plane in another physical body. This serves as truth for them in the sense that we do continue to learn and grow spiritually after we die. It’s just that we do this in the spiritual world, not in the material world. Death is not the end of our spiritual learning and growth process. It is more like the beginning, for which everything we do here on earth is just a prelude.
About Swedenborg not having a concept of reincarnation that would strike him the right way:
Swedenborg’s concept of reincarnation probably came largely from Plato. This is a Western version of reincarnation that is not the same as the Eastern version of reincarnation that has become popular in the West in the past century or so. Swedenborg lived long before the great spread of Eastern religion to the West, and therefore had little awareness of Eastern beliefs.
Having said that, as presented in the above article, Swedenborg’s critique of reincarnation applies just as much to Eastern concepts of reincarnation as it does to Western Platonic-style concepts. It would not have mattered if Swedenborg had been conversant with the Eastern concept of reincarnation. He still would have rejected it as a physical-minded misunderstanding of the spiritual teaching of being born again.
A major theme in Swedenborg’s writings is the fallacy of literal, physical-minded readings of scriptural passages and ideas that are meant to be read spiritually. I believe he would have had the same view of the Eastern scriptures and physical-minded interpretations of them as he did of the Bible and physical-minded interpretations of it.
For my part, I’m no expert in Eastern scriptures, but the little of them that I’ve read gives me every reason to believe that their original inspiration was spiritual, but that many people who read them think materialistically, and therefore interpret them that way. This means that when they read passages about having many lives or about being reborn, they read it as being about bodily reincarnation, when those passages are really about spiritual rebirth. It’s the same literalistic way that Christian fundamentalists read the Bible, and they are just as wrong about the real meaning of their scriptures.
I’ll respond to the rest of your questions in a separate comment.
Hi Anton,
You ask:
Not really. This isn’t something Swedenborg talks about very much. Perhaps there are other references to it in Spiritual Experiences (traditionally The Spiritual Diary), which is where Swedenborg recorded his raw accounts of things he experienced in the spiritual world. If so, I haven’t come across them. I spend most of my time engaged with the works that Swedenborg published during his lifetime. That’s where he expressed his more thought-out and distilled views of God, the spiritual world, the Bible, and so on.
Did it have to do with Swedenborg still living on earth, unlike angels and spirits? Perhaps. But I don’t see any reason why this would make any difference.
The whole thing is rather strange. Are we really living a parallel life in the spiritual world that we don’t know anything about? Are our spirits walking around and interacting with angels and spirits even while we’re still living on earth, and we have no idea it’s happening? I’ve never read Swedenborg statements about each of us being in a particular community in heaven or in hell in that way. I’ve always thought of our spirits as being in a sleeping state in the spiritual world during our lifetime on earth. In general, Swedenborg says that people living on earth are not aware of the spirits they’re with, and vice versa.
Honestly, I don’t know what to make of Swedenborg’s statement in True Christianity 14 about speaking with the spirits of people who are still living on earth without their being aware of it.
You ask:
I just don’t get the sense from Ziewe that the Lord is a living presence dwelling in his soul. If it were, I’d think he would talk about it more. But the Lord seems absent. Ziewe’s spiritual realms seem to be human realms in which humans interact with one another.
If you know of any videos where Ziewe talks about God, by all means give me the links. It just hasn’t come up so far in the videos I’ve watched, leading me to believe that Ziewe has sort of a spiritual humanistic view of the spiritual realms, not a God-centered one.
Finally, you ask:
The eye-for-an-eye and tooth-for-a-tooth version of karma in which we must pay for every sin we have committed in order to counterbalance it is a very low-level, obedience- and law-based idea. Jesus specifically rejected the law of retaliation, which is what this version of karma is all about.
The higher version of karma is not about particular sins, or even about good deeds that we would be rewarded for in our next life. Rather, it’s about the character we build through our deeds, good or evil, and especially through the intentions and beliefs behind them.
In the afterlife we are not punished for anything we have done here on earth, nor are we rewarded for anything we have done here on earth. We are punished and rewarded only for the things we continue to do on the other side. If our heart is selfish and greedy, and we love to do selfish and greedy things, we will keep right on doing them in the afterlife, and those are the evil deeds that we will be punished for, not anything we did here on earth. Ditto if our heart is loving and kind, and being rewarded for good deeds. But for good people, the reward is in the act of kindness itself. There is no desire for reward, which comes as frosting on the cake.
Another way of saying this is that when we die, our slate is wiped clean of all our actions here on earth. We are not punished for any of our wrong deeds, nor are we rewarded for any of our good deeds. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory is fallacious. What we carry with us is our ruling love, and the character we have built around it. From this we will act freely in the spiritual world, whether for evil or for good, and we will reap the consequences of what we sow.
This is the real spiritual meaning of karma. The low-level idea that we are punished or rewarded for everything we do in this life is a necessary belief for people who can’t think beyond earthly systems of punishment and reward. Such people must believe this to keep themselves on the strait and narrow path. But for those who can think spiritually, it’s all about the character we build. Our actions and their consequences are simply expressions of our character.
Hi Lee,
Wow, that actually helped me a ton! I actually had this period of thinking, that Swedenborg was just the top of the top of the enlightened ones, because I thought from the comment you sent, that everything came from God, what he learned. I sort of, had these concepts of the Heaven levels, but I didn’t really associate them with Ziewe’s experiences, because to me, it always seemed like he HAD in fact entered the third Heaven, because of the things he shows in his video “Vistas of infinity”, which I already linked you two-three times. But from the comments on other videos I always sort of, concluded, that he WAS indeed at least IN Heaven, in a couple of occasions. For example he says, that when he entered higher levels, the people weren’t “so self-absorbed”, and this would tie in with Swedenborg saying, that in the World of spirits, the people (not nessecarily focuse on themselves, but) sort of, learn and find out what feels best to them, and in Heaven, everyone’s fully immersed in the loves for the Lord and the neighbor, and that’s (oversimplified) what they’re all about. Also, I thought a little bit about it, because the “homecoming” states, Ziewe describes, or at least the depicitions in the video, look pretty…out there. Everything’s, like, gloomy and not really tangible. (It seems very floowid (fluid, I dunno…😆) And he says, it’s regularly entered through a tunnel of light. This, I’d explain with that he sort of, opened a higher level (through meditation or general opening of the level, I dunno, man) and thar’s why everything was so gloomy and everything was so bright, so that you can hardly see the landscape and stuff.😁But I sorta feel like Ziewe to some degree at least WAS pretty conscious in the afterlife. (An example of a person, who’s experiences of the afterlife indeed should NOT be taken that…at least not as important as Swedenborg, is Graham Nicholls, more in that later in this comment) Of course the one or two hundread hours that Ziewe spent traveling (conscious) in the afterlife are nothing compared to the almost three decades that Swedenborg was fully conscious of the spiritual world, bit Ziewe often went to the afterlife by will and experienced much of it very vividly (and not all that much (although surely some of it) vision-like). And an example you keep giving is Swedenborg meeting Angels and spirits in their homes and earing dinner and talking with them. Although I think that Ziewe had to bring more effort to remain in that state, quite ironically, he describes the same thing. He actually (I don’t know, how often, but at least two-three times) sat down woth some spirits and one example I remember is; they were drinking tea together and another one, where he was at a bar and suddenly his mother showed up there and introduced him to her friends (,some of which he still remembered from when he was a child).So, yeah, thanks for all your clarifications and insights, some of which have actually helped me out of (not nessecarily depression but) states of despair. And I somewhat understand, that many of my questions bring up the feeling, that I am not all that good of a person and living a heavenly life, but I think that I really am on a path toward a better life, and I realized this, when a family member of mine said: “Wow, you’re really changing in a good direction.” (Of course, pretty oversimplified, just so that you get an idea.😅) I don’t think, that I’m to strongly caught up in selfly concerns, (although I think, that I am somtimes, like all others, of course😄) but I just am not really comfortable with the idea, that I could lose the sense of who I am. I remember looking at a greek ancient ruin once, and really enjoying looking at it and feeling the history of this or that thing, but if I had thought about me actually having been someone else, that had lived there…this would, in contrast, have made me pretty uncomfortable. I hope, you understand what I mean.🙂I just read a interview of the Swedenborg Foundation with an author who describes having OBEs at a regular basis. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on it, as usual.😁 Just something, that comes to mind when reading the experiences of this astral traveler. I’d find that interesting.😀
https://swedenborg.com/interview-with-graham-nicholls/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=interview&utm_content=sept4&utm_campaign=SAL
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
Glad to hear that was helpful. And glad to hear you’re making enough progress on your path that other people are noticing it! 🙂
It was an interesting interview with Graham Nicholls, though I think the interviewer was trying a little too hard to get Nicholls to comment on Swedenborg’s experiences rather than just letting him describe his own experiences. Different people are going to have different experiences in the spiritual world. I don’t see anything in the experiences that Nicholls describes that raise any flags for me. They seem like genuine spiritual experiences.
I just would like to add, that Ziewe’s and Campbell’s explanations pretty mich overlap, while Ziewe is mire focused on the experiences and Camplbell on the explanations. This is also why I don’t find these things bery uplifting. As you said: ‘Humanity needs to perfect itself, There’s no greater purpose of learning other than experience for the “collective consciousness”, souls entering some sort of unconscious spiritual sleep, if they don’t keep enlightening themselves and being unconsciously reincarnated into a womb’; “NO WONDER IT’S SO DEPRESSING!”😟
So, at least I hope, that it’s –
a little bit-a lot more uplifting and inspiring than what Campbell and Ziewe say!🙃Hi Anton,
Wait. What did I say?
Hi Lee,
I searched for “Campbell” in my mails, and to Sam, you said this on January 14th 2024:
“Hi Sam,
I finally have an opportunity to watch the videos you posted. The first one is mostly autobiographical, so I won’t comment on it except to say that he apparently grew up in a traditional Christian environment, which means that traditional Christian views of the afterlife are what he had to draw on as background or counterpoint to what he was discovering.
Unfortunately, those ideas are rather childish, as he covers in the second video. So of course as a serious scientist, he couldn’t take them seriously. That led him on a path to something completely different, which seems to be a fusion of reincarnation and the universe being a computer simulation.
It’s sort of the worst of both worlds: science and religion. 😀
Scientifically, he thinks everything is just lines of code in a computer. There is no actual humanity. We’re all just programs. He doesn’t say who wrote the program, or why there should even be a program.
Religiously, everything we do here in our earthly lifetime just gets erased from active memory and stored away in a database somewhere, and we start all over again. So nothing we do here really makes any difference, except maybe to the cosmic computer, which gets more data to put in its memory bank.
No wonder it’s so depressing! 😦
What do I think about all this?”
And then you went on to say what you think about all this.😅
Do you know what I’m talking about?
Hi Anton,
Oh, okay. Now, what were we talking about?
I think, it was that we were talking about why these things were so uncomforting to me(, and that was just an extra point).
You said:
“Hi Anton,
First, I would suggest that assuming you are not actively engaging in evil and destructive behavior (which I don’t think you are), a spiritual teaching or belief system should not strike existential fear into you.
If you don’t have any further thoughts on that, then that’s it, I think.😊
Best wishes
Hi Anton,
People who are actively engaged in evil do fear God in a very literal way. They’re afraid that God is going to punish them for their behavior. They’re afraid of hellfire. That’s not how it actually works, but that’s what they believe. That’s why some of them reject God altogether and become atheists of the negative sort, and others push God out of their lives, and ignore God as much as possible. They also hold religion in contempt because it condemns their behavior. And yet, they continue to have a certain fear that is inseparable from their evil and destructive desires and actions. For such people, fear of God is actually a necessary and even healthy thing. It’s one of the few things that might bring them up short and motivate them to change their ways before it’s too late.
My point is that having an existential fear of God and spirit isn’t necessarily a bad thing if you happen to be a selfish, greedy, power-hungry person who is bent on an evil and destructive way of life.
However, for people who are not living a bad life, but are doing their best to love God and their neighbor, or at least to love their neighbor in active, practical ways, God, religion, and spirituality should not be something that strikes fear into the heart. It should be something that gives life, light, strength, comfort, and peace to such people. Yes, there might be some parts of their lives that aren’t so good, that will cause them some fear that maybe they might not “make the cut.” That’s not all bad. It provides motivation to keep working on the parts of themselves that need fixing. But in general, if a religion or spiritual perspective keeps good people in fear and dread, that’s not a good thing.
What I was suggesting is that if Ziewe’s understanding of the universe causes you angst, fear, and dread, and you’re generally a decent person, then maybe the problem is not with you, but with Ziewe’s understanding of the universe. Better to go with something that makes your burden lighter rather than making it heavier.
Oh, actually, do you have any commentary on this unconscious-spiritual-sleep-thingy? Does it have any analogy and why do Ziewe and Campbell describe it? You said to Sam, that it’s because specifically Campbell lacks the idea, that God is infinite and we will never get bored, and life will never get stagnating to the point we just succumb to the unconscious and are reincarnated into a fetus growing in a womb. But do you have thoughts on this conept? Is this an illusion, that Angels or spirits play before their eyes to let them staying at belief of the things they previously believed?
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
There does seem to be a concept out there that eventually we all slip into a spiritual sleep of unconsciousness, and thereby cease to exist as individuals. Traditional Christians think this happens when we die, until we are resurrected at some future Judgment Day. Some African traditional religions hold that when living people cease to commune with their deceased ancestors and offer them gifts of meat, grain, drink, and so on, those ancestors drift into a permanent sleep, and cease to exist. Apparently Campbell has some similar idea.
However, Jesus spoke of eternal life, and Swedenborg also describes our afterlife as lasting to eternity. And because, as I said to Sam, God is infinite, whereas we’re finite, we will never run out of ways to learn and grow as people. This means that life will never get boring.
Even in this physical realm, scientists periodically get this nutty idea that we’re close to completely understanding everything in the universe, and all that will be left will be mop-up operations. But then they make some new discoveries that defy everything they had thought they knew up to that time, and they have to start all over again working out what that is all about, and how it fits into and changes their previous theories.
If that’s the case even with physical science, which is limited to the material universe, it will be even more true of our life in the spiritual universe, which is far vaster and has far fewer limitations than this physical universe.
In short, there will never be a time when we drift off to sleep because we’ve run out of new things to experience. Infinity is infinite. That means there’s no end to it. Even after we’ve been living in the spiritual world for the earthly equivalent of the entire age of this physical universe from beginning to end (if it has an end), we will be no closer to infinity than we were on the day we were born.
Hi Lee,
mediums often present themselves of being the highest stage of communication with the other side and I recently was hearing a lot about mediums who interpret nearly all of the signs given to them as the soul of people, animals etc. as a sign if them potentially reincarnating. For instance, I saw a medium, who got told by the dog of the client that it would reincarnate as the next cat, they’re going to have. And also many others, who showed them things that almost all mediums interpreted as signs of an upcoming reincarnation. Why is that? Is it misinterpretaion? Or already existing beliefs of the medium and/or the clients? And did you see any medium talking about this and can maybe give an/some alternate explanation/s?
To me, it seems like…EVERYBODY on the internet, says like: “Oh, yeah, we’re on earth to learn. And once you leave, it depends on what your soul wants to accomplice. If it wants to experience something, you’re getting incarnated right back into earth-life, if your self has more control in the moment, then the ego might go on jouneys, in which it actually discovers the underlying mechanics and blueprints. And if your soul wants to help people quickly, then it depends.”
I already have some alternate explanations from you, but WHY?! You know?, WHY?! Why the frick, is EVERYBODY, who’s leaking into spirituality learning and seeing things like that? (NDEr’s like John Davis, astral travelers like Jurgen Ziewe and Graham Nicholls, mediums like Bettina-Suvi Rode, phycics like Matt Fraser and even researchers dedicated to just characterizing and assigning alledged reincarnation cases, like Ian Stevenson.) (Rode even described, that as she tried to remember more of her past lives she…actually did. Was that conecting to more and wider spectrums of communities in the world of spirits of deceased people who lived on earth?) You said, that Swedenborg would say, because either their thinking is very materialistic or because they already believe this stuff. (Sometimes because just like SO MANY people are describing these things and it seems just plausible, you know what I mean?)
Hope you cam shed light on this conundrum that has followed me, like, everywhere I go into spirituality.😅
Kind regards
Hi Anton,
Not everybody is saying that reincarnation is real. Not even all NDEers are saying that reincarnation is real. But if the algorithm thinks you’re interested in reincarnation, it’s going to keep feeding you stuff by people who say that reincarnation is real. I, on the other hand, am not very interested in reincarnation, and the algorithm rarely feeds me stuff by people who say that reincarnation is real. I believe there’s an echo chamber effect going on here.
Consider if you were a fundamentalist Christian who believes that we will be physically resurrected from our graves at some future Judgment Day, everyone will be gathered in front of God’s throne, and those who pass muster will live forever in their reconstituted physical bodies on a brand new planet Earth. What sort of material will the algorithm serve you? You’ll say that everyone is saying that we’ll be resurrected physically, and that even if our body has rotted away and crumbled to dust, God will gather it back together and put flesh back on it just like God did with the dry bones in Ezekiel 37:1–14.
Now consider that the vast bulk of Christians believe that God consists of three Persons, even though the Bible never says this. And consider that a massive number of Christians believe that we are justified by faith alone, even though the Bible flatly denies this. Consider that a billion or so Christians probably still believe that all non-Christians will go to hell. Consider also that a growing number of people believe that the earth is flat, even though we have petabytes of pictures and videos of a spherical earth. Consider that there are huge numbers of people who believe that there is a vast worldwide government conspiracy to keep aliens secret from us. And on and on.
People who believe any of these things will find thousands, millions, or even billions of other people who agree with them, and they will soon believe that everyone who knows anything believes the same thing they do. That is the case even if what they believe is ridiculous and silly to any objective observer.
Why do so many people believe in reincarnation? Because we live in a materialistic society on a materialistic planet, for which physical things have more reality and currency than spiritual things. Millions of people believe in reincarnation for the same reason millions of people believe in a future physical resurrection on this earth. They can’t conceive of a spiritual realm that is solid, real, and much better than our physical planet in every way, including for learning and growing. They think that life, learning, and growth must take place on the physical plane because anything spiritual is wispy, diaphanous, and unreal, and not a place they would want to live.
So yes, it is earthly, physical, materialistic thinking that causes reincarnation to be such a popular idea.
You know, when I say to traditional Christians that their literal interpretation of the Bible, their belief in a future physical resurrection, and their belief in a future literal return of Jesus to this earth is earthly, fleshly-minded, and materialistic, they get angry. They truly believe that these are spiritual beliefs, not physical-minded beliefs, even though they all literally involve physical things happening!
The same is true of people who believe in reincarnation. They all think that it is the most spiritual of beliefs, even though it literally involves physical rebirth in the physical world. These people don’t even know what the word “spiritual” means. How could they, when they think that physical things are spiritual?
My suggestion: Stop watching videos about reincarnation, and the algorithm will stop serving them up to you.
Just as an experiment, start watching videos about some other outlandish belief, such as that the earth is flat. Pretty soon everyone will believe that the earth is flat! 😀
Hi Anton,
You say:
Well, consider how much of a following a medium would get who said, “You know, I’m sort of average at communicating with the other side. There are lots of mediums who are way better at it than I am. In fact, a lot of what I hear from the other side probably isn’t true.”
No medium is ever going to say that!
PS: I was really thinking about your statement, that there really IS an infinite number of possible songs or operas, etc. But (even though it’s not your area of expertise) could you go into a little bit of detail? Because while Dr. Rose and Curtis Childs from OTLE also stated that there are a infinite number of songs, since God is infinite and there will always New things to everything, I still don’t have a clear concept in my head. I was just now listening to a music album and thought: “Maybe there’s an infinte number of songs but maybe not an infinite number if ROCK songs, for example…?”Vsauce has made a video dedicated to the question if there is an infinite number of different melodies, but of course “scientific” based. And one of your arguments that we’ll not run out of new songs was that there are just so many parts that make up music, but even there a lot…and I really mean A LOT, which could hold out for SO, SO MANY songs, they can’t hold out for INFINITE songs. Do you have an idea, how we fix this? Is the reality, that only if we make the concept of state the primary thing in our understanding time and space, sort of, an analogy for the other things, that are infinite?Kind regards
Hi Anton,
Not being an expert on music, I’ve probably said about all I can on that subject. But even a quick look though the Wikipedia page on music theory will give you some sense of the long history and the great complexity of music. We’ve been making music for thousands of years, and we haven’t run out of new songs yet. In fact, there has been a massive proliferation of types and genres of music just within the past century or two. Far from running out of steam and thinning out after all these thousands of years of making music, things are going in the opposite direction!
I would also suggest not getting your head too tangled up in the problem of infinity. Not only can we humans not conceive of infinity, but we don’t live in infinity. We live in finite spaces. Even the angels of heaven don’t live in infinity, but in finite states. Not only will we never reach infinity, but we will never come close to infinity. This means that it doesn’t really matter if there are infinite songs. What matters is that we will never run out of new songs. No matter how many new songs we write and perform, there will always be a finite number of songs, not an infinite number of songs. Getting all worked up about whether there are infinite songs is therefore a mere hypothetical.
Looked at from a more psychological and spiritual perspective, consider that music is especially geared to expressing human emotions. Yes, many songs do have lyrics that engage our intellect. But even songs with lyrics are intended primarily to engage our feelings and emotions. Otherwise they would be delivered as spoken words, not as songs.
Now consider whether we will ever run out of new emotions to feel. Have you ever run out of new emotions to feel? Are you still feeling only the emotions you felt ten, fifteen, or twenty years ago? Ask someone who is old, but still active, whether they are running out of new thoughts and feelings now that they’re old? People commonly continue to pursue the things they love right into old age, and never run out of new feelings and new discoveries. For the very same reason, we never run out of new songs to play and sing.
The underlying issue here, I think, is the fear that at some point we will run out of anything new to discover, learn, and feel. That life will become boring and monotonous, so that we won’t want to live anymore.
But that hasn’t happened to humanity in the hundreds of thousands of years we have apparently been living on this earth. It certainly hasn’t happened in the five thousand years of recorded history. Again, instead of running out of new things, the opposite is happening. Just in the past few centuries there has been an explosion of new discoveries and new knowledge, and every new discovery seems to answer one question while raising ten more new questions that we didn’t even know to ask before.
Meanwhile, on the level of emotions and relationships, there is every bit as much of a vast explosion of new exploration and experience. Today we’ve got whole armies of people making their living as psychologists, counselors, therapists, and so on, when a few hundred years ago none of these professions even existed. People are delving into the human psyche, emotions, relationships, and so on in ways we have never done before. And instead of finding neat answers that answer all our questions, the more we look, the more complex it gets, and the more questions we have.
Just as we are in no danger of running out of new information and understanding to discover, so we are in no danger of running out of new feelings and emotions and relationships to express in song.
And I do not believe we ever will.
Hi Anton,
Speaking of new genres of music, rap music started in the 1970s, but did it really? Way back in 1939, the Munchkin Mayor was already rapping:
😀
Hi Lee, I’d also like to add, that I see how NDErs and people with vague and little past live memories are simply influenced by the spirit’s thoughts flowing into them, but I’m just confused by ALL these people, that say reincarnation is real.
I’m not the kinda guy who says: “THIS guy has really figured it all out!”, but I simply just see the numbers…, that make me wonder…
Best wishes and a great weekend
Hi Anton,
On this, I’ll refer you to my response to your earlier, longer comment on this, here.
Hi Lee,
when I got introduced into this whole afterlife thing, persons who I found out about and got immersed in alobgside Ziewe were Wolf and Christian Sundberg. I, for the most part, forgot about them, but I just came to the glorious idea to watch their videos with Alex Ferrari again…and I have to say…I’m confused again. I tried to understand their experiences from a Swedenborgian perspective, but I got so concentrated, that it didn’t go as I hoped. I am sort of, again coming into a state slowly, where I can wrap my head around it, but I have had the experiences over and over again, that sharing these things with you and asking you on your take is more satisfying and persisting.
These videos are pretty long, but since you offered me to watch the Howard Storm video, maybe you will have some spare time during the week. I’m not rushing you for a quick answer, since my questions are often pretty hard and complex and take some time to be answered.
The third video is really optional at first, because it’s pretty long and the important points have been adressed earlier.
I should have probably waited for the answers to my other questions first, but I feel like this should have priority. I really hope you can lift me out of my confusion! And thank you greatly for all of your answers so far!😊
Kind wishes
Hi Anton,
I have several thoughts in response to these videos.
First, falsity is every bit as complex and nuanced as truth. Falsity is, in fact, a distorted mirror image of truth. Every part of heaven has a distorted mirror image in hell. Every blade of grass in heaven has a distorted mirror image in hell. Truth is the form of heaven. This means that truth is incredibly complex. Falsity is the form of hell. This means that falsity is also incredibly complex.
When I was young, in my teens and early twenties, I used to read about super complicated beliefs or behaviors that I thought were wrong, and think, “How could these be false or evil when they’re so complex? Surely, with all this detail, there must be something to them!” Over time, though, I realized what just said: that falsity is every bit as complex and detailed as truth, and evil is every bit as complex and nuanced as good.
As an example on the evil side of things, consider the incredibly complex realm of unhealthy and destructive sexual behavior. There is no end to the variety in adultery, promiscuity, prostitution, unhealthy fetishes, sexual abuse, and on and on. Yet it is all evil and destructive.
As an example on the falsity side of things, consider the many centuries of massive theological, literary, and creative output in support of and surrounding the doctrine of the Trinity of Persons. That doctrine is unbiblical and false, yet the amount of human energy and expression that has gone into it is truly staggering. All of its believers and defenders consider it to be the central and most important doctrine of Christianity. How can that be, if it is entirely false? How could even Christian mystics experience the Trinity of Persons, when it does not exist? And yet, that is the reality.
Similarly, bodily reincarnation has existed as a belief for thousands of years. And in the same way, there has been massive theological, literary, and creative output in support of it. Just as with the Christian mystics who experienced the Trinity of Persons, thousands and even millions of people have, in their mind, experienced reincarnation, and have built up a huge body of material documenting it. And yet, bodily reincarnation does not happen. How can that be? And yet, it is the reality.
All of the experiences of reincarnation come from somewhere. For the most part, they come from the process Swedenborg described: memories from other people’s earlier lives on earth are infused into the minds of people currently living on earth. These people experience past lives, believing that those lives are their own lives when in reality they are other people’s lives.
But the situation is more complex than that. This mechanism alone doesn’t explain everything involved in the common belief in physical reincarnation. Consider, for example that people who believe in reincarnation die and go to the spiritual world just as people who don’t believe in reincarnation do. And going to the spiritual world doesn’t automatically turn us into highly enlightened beings who see all truth in a clear light. Not at all. We take not only our character, but our beliefs with us into the spiritual world. And not everyone is willing to give up the beliefs they have held to tightly as the truth, and have confirmed and supported in their own minds over decades of time during their lives in the material world.
This means that people visiting the spiritual world in NDEs, astral traveling, visions, and so on can easily encounter people who are residents of the spiritual world, and who continue to believe in reincarnation. These spirits will have had time to confirm their beliefs based on the phenomena they encounter in the spiritual world, and they will pass these confirmations on to visitors from earth who either already believe in reincarnation already or are amenable to that belief. And so, for those people still living on earth, the belief in reincarnation gets corroborated in the spiritual world, which makes it seem to them like ultimate, unquestionable truth.
Even the angels will not disabuse people of false beliefs when they see that those beliefs are strongly connected to the people’s sense of rightness, fairness, spirituality, and goodness in life. Instead, angels will use those beliefs, false as they may be, to motivate the people who hold them toward living a life of thoughtfulness, love, and service. Many people who believe in reincarnation hold that belief as central to their sense of spirituality and goodness. And many of them are truly good and thoughtful people. For them, reincarnation, even though it is false, serves as truth. That is why even angels will not disturb their belief in reincarnation. Ripping that belief away from them would likely lead them into a personal crisis in which they would deny spiritual reality and goodness altogether, leading to disastrous effects in their lives.
To add yet another layer of complexity, even though reincarnation is false, it does contain symbolism that points to spiritual things that are true. Consider “pre-birth experiences” as covered in one of the videos (I may not be getting the terminology quite right.) The person describing this experience in the video gave detailed descriptions of being a spirit in the spiritual realm (in Swedenborgian terms), and then entering into a new physical body. This doesn’t actually happen. And yet, just as the spiritual meaning of being born again is spiritual rebirth, so the cycles of incarnations described in various theories of reincarnation correspond to the cycles of spiritual rebirth that we go through.
Spiritual rebirth is not a one-time event. It is a repeating pattern or cycle of moving upwards into spiritual states of being and then back downwards into physical-minded states of being, over and over again throughout our lives. Each time we begin a new cycle, we have another “incarnation” of ourselves, but it is a spiritual “incarnation,” not a physical one. That’s why Krishna says to Arjuna, “Both you and I have had many births, O Arjun” (Bhagavad Gita chapter 4, verse 5). The births he was talking about were spiritual births, not physical births. But if his words are read literally and physically, they are interpreted as being about reincarnation rather than their real meaning of spiritual rebirth—which is the same thing Jesus was explaining to Nicodemus in John 3.
So yes, we do pass from a spiritual place into a physical one. But it is not our spirit passing into a new physical body. It is our spiritually enlightened mind being thrust back into a physical-minded state as we begin a new round of struggles to overcome the selfish, greedy, and physical-minded parts of ourselves, and replace them with a more spiritual way of thinking and feeling.
This happens repeatedly throughout the lifetime of people who are going through the process of spiritual rebirth. But if it is put into a physical image, similar to spiritual rebirth being put into the image of physical birth, it can come out as a spirit dwelling in the spiritual realm being thrust back into a physical body in the physical womb of a physical woman.
This is the true spiritual meaning and origin of pre-birth experiences. But for those who believe in reincarnation, this imagery of falling down into another cycle in the spiritual rebirth process will be taken literally, and will therefore be experienced as literal pre-birth experiences leading to reincarnation.
For those who have these experiences, it will not be possible to get them to think of it in any other way. If the people in those videos were to read what I am writing right now, they would completely reject what I am saying. They would say that I haven’t been there, I haven’t experienced it, so I don’t know what I’m talking about.
However, Swedenborg has been there, and he has had far more extensive experience in the spiritual world than any of these people who interpret their spiritual experiences as being about reincarnation. And I, for one, trust Swedenborg’s account far more than I trust the accounts of various astral travelers and mediums. You will have to make up your own mind whom to trust.
Further, I believe that the essence of religion, on the intellectual side, is to develop a spiritual understanding of things, and to think of things spiritually rather than physically. And as covered in the above articles and in many of my comments here in response to you and others, bodily reincarnation is a physical understanding, whereas spiritual rebirth is a spiritual understanding. This is well-illustrated in Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus about being born again. And this principle applies just as much to the Eastern scriptures that are commonly interpreted as talking about bodily reincarnation. In those scriptures the real meaning is spiritual rebirth just as much as it is in the Bible.
This is getting long, so I’ll post this and move on another response in a separate reply. I hope this much gives you some perspective on how so many people can be so sure of reincarnation based on personal experience, when in reality reincarnation does not happen. What happens instead is spiritual rebirth, but this is commonly conveyed through physical imagery involving the physical birth process.
Hi Anton,
Another response to the videos:
In the interviews with the big-bearded guy, the interviewer asks what the purpose of life is. The guru-guy answers along the lines of, “The purpose of life is to learn.”
This is a Gnostic-style understanding of the purpose of life. It’s all about intellect and experience, aka knowledge (Greek: gnosis).
This is not exactly a wrong understanding of the meaning of life. We are intended to learn. But that is not the primary purpose of life. And those who insist that knowledge is the primary and most important thing in life are very badly wrong.
What is our learning and knowledge for, anyway? Does simply piling up experience and knowledge, until we are exceedingly smart and brilliant people, accomplish anything? Does merely acquiring even spiritual knowledge and enlightenment accomplish anything?
By itself, knowledge and enlightenment accomplishes nothing at all. It is just a castle in the air. The purpose of knowledge is to guide us in right living.
Consider a person who learns everything there is to know about airplanes, airlines, air traffic, aerodynamics, and everything flight-related, but never steps onto a plane, never takes any job related to flying, and never uses that knowledge in any way. What good is all that knowledge? It accomplishes nothing whatsoever except to make that person think he or she is an “expert” on flying.
Similarly, what good is spiritual learning and enlightenment if we never put it into practice in our life? Is a guru really “enlightened” if he can explain the meaning of life in profound detail, but spends his days smoking, drinking, driving fancy cars, and sleeping with his attractive followers?
I’m not saying that’s what the big-bearded guy is doing with his life. Maybe he’s a great guy. I don’t know. But honesty, I wasn’t all that impressed with him. He seems to take an awful lot of pleasure, and think he is awfully cute, in salting his conversation with crude language and references to poop. Maybe he actually is doing all sorts of good deeds for people. But I didn’t see much evidence of that. He seemed pretty up on himself. Several times he said he could easily show the interviewer some profound thing, and took the interviewer through some meditation ritual that was supposed to be profoundly enlightening, but which clearly fell flat on the interviewer, even though the interviewer was doing his best to treat the guru-guy like some profoundly enlightened master. Personally, I just didn’t see it.
Add to this that the guy says he hasn’t read a book in thirty years, and my general impression was that he just wasn’t all that knowledgeable—even though he had a very high opinion of his own knowledge and enlightenment. Personally, I found his whole presentation to be quite underwhelming. It sounded all spiritual, but there just wasn’t all that much substance to it.
Learning is not the purpose of life. At least, it isn’t the primary purpose of life. No, the purpose of life is to learn how to love other people, and how to love God, and be loved by them in return. Another way of saying this is that the most important thing in life is not learning and intellect, but love and relationships. Any time I hear guru-types saying that the purpose of life is to learn, I consider them to be very limited in their understanding of what life is all about.
But the idea that life is all about experience and learning does fit in with the whole reincarnation idea. We’re all sparks from the universal soul, sent out into the dark underbelly of the universe to gain experience and knowledge, and bring it back to the Universal One, so that the Universal One can gain knowledge and become more conscious.
If so, then the Universal One is very sadistic in sending out so many “sparks” to have horrendously awful experiences on this earth just so that He/She/It can become more “enlightened.” Personally, I found it sickening that the interviewer tried to push the idea that even horribly murderous people such as Genghis Khan and Adolph Hitler are no different from anyone else. They’re just souls gaining knowledge of the dark side of human life. Let’s all chant AAAAAAOOOOOMMMM while dictators bomb babies.
I know the interviewer is just trying to find some sense of goodness amidst the horrendous evil of this life. But denying the reality of evil, and saying that both good and evil are just “learning experiences” is, in my view, beyond horrible. Go tell the people in Ukraine or Gaza whose cities and villages are being flattened and whose family and friends are being maimed and killed that it’s all just “experience,” and it’s all just part of our cosmic process of “learning.” I can guarantee you that they will tell you exactly where to shove your “learning” and “enlightenment.”
All of this is why I can never, even from a purely human standpoint, accept the Gnostic and reincarnationist view of life. It’s an abstract, intellectualized belief system that denies the reality of evil and turns its back on people who are suffering the very real effects of evil. Just meditate in perfect stillness, and all that evil will magically disappear!
Bull$%^&! It is a cruel, dehumanizing view of life—and one that I will never accept.
But once again, you’ll have to make up your own mind.
Hi Anton,
In an earlier reply to you here, I said that angels do not rip away people’s closely-held beliefs even if they’re wrong, but instead use them to lead these people to a better life. Apropos of that, I just came across this passage in Swedenborg, which I’ve slightly edited to make it read more easily outside of its original context:
This is illustrated in the YouTube video you linked in this comment, in which the person being interviewed says many beautiful things about living a life of love even though some of the ideas he uses to interpret his NDEs are questionable. It doesn’t matter so much if he’s off on some of his beliefs if those beliefs prompt him to actually live a life of loving and caring for other people.
Similarly, even people who hold to toxic beliefs about reincarnation, karma, and evil being mere illusion commonly live kind and decent lives in their actual daily interactions with other people. Although following these beliefs to their logical conclusions would result in a callous disregard for human pain and suffering, the people who hold to them commonly don’t act that way in real life. This is a result of the aforementioned work of God and the angels in not breaking people’s false beliefs, but instead bending them toward truth and goodness in their mind and in their life.
Still, it is always better to believe things that are actually true, because they can lead us toward truth and goodness much more clearly and directly. For an illustration of this in a Christian context, please see:
Does Doctrine Matter? Why is it Important to Believe the Right Thing?
And sorry in advance.🙂 In the last days I have really FLOODED you with my questions, so take as much time as needed!😄
I’ve also been wtching this video today from 20:07 on and could you comment on the concept of the “quantum field” described by this guest, as an extra?
Hi Anton,
When he talks about the “quantum field,” “photons,” and so on, it seems to be a stand-in for the spiritual realm and spiritual energy.
It seems like the website is not processing the main comment. It says since I posted it 5-7 hours ago: “Awaiting moderation” (Whatever that means)
If it’s not preocessee until tomorrow, I guess imma send it again, because I find that comment important…
You can answer the other questions in the meantime, and sorry once again for sending you nearly as many questions or times-worth of answering as with my novel…😅
Hi Anton,
As stated in our comments policy, comments with two or more links are held for review. That means I have to approve it before it will appear to anyone but me and the commenter.
Ah, ok, got it. But since at least you can see it, I guess that’s totally fine.😄
Hi Lee,
I just wrote a comment, but it doesn’t seem to show up, not even for me. So, if in a few minutes you have the exact same comment twice, sorry about that.😅
Hi Anton,
This time it went into the spam folder. There have been a lot of false positives for spam lately. Sorry about that.
Hi Lee,
thank you kindly for all your answers and time spent to get at the things I’m curious about.🙂
About the algorithm; It’s
possible. But I don’t really think, that the yt-algorithm is the main point. I’m acutally not even logged in on google.😆 Actually, the very first time I searched for “afterlife” on youtube, there popped up Campbell, Ferrari and supposed reincarnation-proovers in the top 20 or so results. And everywhere I go nowadays, even OTLE-live-question-episodes, everybody’s asking them: “If my dad reincarnates, won’t I be able to meet him again?” “What does Swedenborg say about reincarnation?” “What’s the biggest discrepancy between him and NDErs?” Answer: “Reincarnation.” “I still rememeber what it was like before birth, on the astral levels, what does Swedenborg say about why it’s hard to remember, what it was like, there?” The list could go on, but I think you get the point.
Many people who believe in reincarnation believe that you and I really have no say in the matter, if we reincarnate or not and are just in the stream of our soul’s plan to experience things and form relationships with particular other souls. This is also what they understand by “soul mates”, “soul family”, etc. And I guess, that that’s precisely, why they think it’s so spiritual. They let their soul’s plan guide them, and think that that’s spiritual. If the soul says, they shall lose a loved one, so be it. (They may reincarnate as a person that is going to come into their lives. And even people who already ARE in their lives, because reincarnationsupporters say, that there’s absolutely no time to the soul, what seems a little bit like Swedenborg’s description of God. And therefore, in their next life, they could be someone, that was born, for example, in 1990, while their last life was between 1980-2015, for example.
But, ok, let’s just move that aside for now.
I guess, I understand what you mean with music…? But, anyway, bottom line: “There will NEVER be no new songs, that could be written, whether it’s rock, rap or Folklore.😄
Hopefully one day, I can grasp it, at least, and feel/know how it’s true!🙂
Is this also true of other arts, tho?
I was just wondering, did you read Swedenborg’s book “Spiritual Experiences”? (The title may be translated in a different way.) Because, if I understand it right, there he gives the most detail about the raw experiences, as they were. And I’m curious, if there’s any more detail to it. For example, how exactly he learned, what heißt describing in his books, his S.T.E.(Spiritually Transformative Experience), where he met Jesus. Or maybe how he came to understandings of the concpets in the afterlife. I know, that the basis of the New church and salvation and everything akined to these things came directly from the Lord, but maybe some specifics about other things, that’d be interesting to me.
Yes, Wolf (the bearded-guy,) very much seems to me like some kind of strange guru, now. Tho I think, that the background of his terminology and character may be explained in a good way in the third video I linked you (the second vid about him), if you have some spare time over the next few days. If you don’t, or want to have a little overview before, here’s one:
He was abused by his parents severly. At the age of 4 or 5 or so, he began to have memories that weren’t his (supposed past life memories). (I don’t remember how, but) A man from the city he lived in, who was big into meditation (and probably also Zen-Buddhism or something like that) took him under his wing and everytime he told his alcoholic mother, he was going somewhere (I don’t remember where exactly😅) and he would actually visit this man, who seemed to realize more and more his potential and his talent in these things. And so he actually took him to his master, who originally came from Tibet. And he, the master, also sensed the potential for enlightenment or the opening of higher astral levels, at least, but he also sensed something. Alledgedly, he sensed some sort of negative energy having a strong affect on (I think it was his) heart chakra. And this negative-energy-influence came from the abuse of his alcoholic mother. And the master was of the opinion, that the only way he could get rid of that negative influence, that was Harmoniehis soul, was very, very deep meditation. And what is the best location for very, very deep meditation?
…Tibet.
And so, the two alledgedly took the next flight to Lhasa, the master took him to a buddhist monastery, and…left him in front of the gate and went back, with Wolf’s only choice in the freezing cold being, to go to the monastery. And by the way, he was only 13, then. As you can imagine, for a split second he thought: “You b***ard!” But he quickly became aware that this was his destiny and so he accepted his fate and climbed the remaining stairs up to the monastery and he wouldn’t leave it for the next five years.
You can probably see, in which way his conditioning was developing, at that point.
I’d say, that the reason he doesn’t care all that much about crises and wars and so on, is simply because he believes it’s all an illusion and REALLY there’s ultimately only love. While he doesn’t use the terminology people commonly use, he seems to believe some sort of simulation is taking place. Further, you get a sense of his worldview when he teils Ferrari, that he sould look for a tree. And Ferrari’s like: “Yes, there’s one, and?” And he was like (not paraphrasing): “To the coreconsciousness, that’s not actually a true. It’s just how LIFE ITSELF expresses in a pqrticular way. Actually, everything’s one, and to give that life-expression some sort of name doesn’t actually make the slightest bit of sense, because when you give this a name, “tree”, you claim, that it’s distinct of everything else/every other way life expresses itself, and therefore, you have to give EVERYTHING ELSE also names, because suddenly, everything’s distinct from one another. What an outrageously hard work that is!” Another idea about him you get is when Ferrari asked him his age, and he replied: “Well, my existence began at the big bang, just like for you, your viewers and everybody else, but if you wanna know, how long I’m carrying this physical thing with me, that’s called body…hmmm, let me think…” That’s also something similar to what Sundberg, the guest in the first video of the bigger comment said: “…My body is xx years old right now…”
Wolf also said, that he doesn’t really think this life of his here is such a big deal, because his soul simply wanted to experience in this lifetime on earth, what it’s like to be such a tuned-in buddhist-mystic-sorta-guy.
I think that’s enough of a summary for now.
One or two years ago I listened to an audiobook of an astral traveler. In it, he talked about what travelling out of body feels and looks like and some phenomena occuring on the astral planes. For example, he gave extensive background on auras, that are seen around people, if you look at them in your astral body, which colors they have, and what that means. (I know, that Swedenborg also extensively talked about auras.) Tha author mainly tells a “story”, in which you can imagine to go with him on an astral journey. He manually changes the vibrational level if the reader (or listener) and first shows him around (shows him the image of the physical world within the astral body, which is where he shows him the auras of the people, who pass them. The, for me, most confusing part, is when he tells the reader (or listener) to modify his vibrational level so that they can travel to a part of the afterlife (supposedly), where there are people in a grey…you can’t really call it landscape, it’s just all grey and dark, and there are people, who seemed to walk with no direction or purpose or anything. They were just…there and were just walking, not even looking strayed but didn’t have any emotion whatsoever on their faces. The author told the reader, that these were soulless…bodies of people, which they left behind. Sort of, what some people describe as avatars, that are being left behind, if the person is being reincarnated into another “avatar” on the physical plane by the soul.
He also talks about reincarnation, in a way. He says, that (as far as I remember, and definitely with other terminology) very good and and very evil people only stay for a very short time on the astral planes and reincarnate pretty quickly or at least go into a different state, and people, who are sort of, in the middle, spend quite a lot time in the afterlife. (Pretty similar to what Swedenborg says of the World of spirits)
He explained to the reader, how the afterlife is structured, with there being seven essential levels, but he says that roughly, in the lower ones, there are people who haven’t yet realized, that they’ve died or these “avatars” described. In the middle ones, there are mostly the people, who haven’t yet incarnated yet and in the higher ones there are higher developed beings, he even refers to it as “heaven”. But he also says, that very, very few astral travelers actually end up there, because they have no buisness there and their state of mind is not in accord with these beings. He, to the best of my knowledge, also doesn’t describe, what it looks or feels like, there. Instead he gives extensive detail on the middle levels, which are very much like our earth.
A video, that I just found, and which uses the same terminology but different sepcific divisions, that I’d like you to respond to is this:
This is sort of, the concept, and what are your thoughts on that?
I think, for now I’ll leave it there, since I have more questions, but it’s still a massive comment and I’m really curious on your take, specifically to the book and video. Why were they seeing these things and interpreting it that way, and why was Swedenborg interpreting it differently? What do you think about the four latter planes?
Kind regards and great weekend
Hi Anton,
Yes, reincarnation has become an immensely popular belief. I think that’s because reincarnation is a materialistic version of being born again, and today’s human society is still quite materialistic, as it has been for thousands of years.
I don’t think the bearded guy is a bad guy. He clearly has put effort into rising above his terrible childhood, which is a good thing. And I’m sure he has given many people a sense of greater meaning in life. But honestly, having been steeped in Swedenborg, I find everything else to be fuzzy and unsatisfying by comparison. For others who grew up without any real spirituality in their lives, what he and others like him offer can indeed feel like a ray of light in a dark world.
Swedenborg’s Spiritual Experiences (traditionally The Spiritual Diary) is indeed where he recorded his raw spiritual experiences. It spans six volumes in the usual English translations, so it’s not something one just picks up and reads in an afternoon. It is also heavily skewed toward his earlier years of having his spiritual eyes open, before he fully figured out how the spiritual world works. There is a lot of material in it that Swedenborg interpreted differently than he did later, after he’d fully gotten his bearings in the spiritual world.
For example, most of the statements that a small number of Swedenborgians use to deny the eternity of hell come from Spiritual Experiences, and from the first volume or two of Secrets of Heaven, which were also published before Swedenborg fully formed his mature understanding of heaven and hell. Later in Secrets of Heaven itself, and also in Heaven and Hell, which was the next book he published after he finished publishing Secrets of Heaven, he states categorically that people who go to hell stay there forever.
The fact that Swedenborg at first believed that hell is not eternal shows that even people who have extensive experience in the spiritual world can still be mistaken about how things work spiritually. Swedenborg had been exploring the spiritual world for seven or eight years before things fully fell into place in his mind. His spiritual eyes were first opened in 1743. The first volume of Secrets of Heaven was published in 1749, and he published one volume per year until all eight volumes were finished. The last one was published in 1756. So it was at least 1750, or seven years after his spiritual eyes were opened, that he arrived at his settled understanding of the spiritual world. By the time he published volume 3, he had plateaued, and the rest of his writings present a single coherent view of the spiritual world and of other spiritual subjects.
Now consider what would happen for people who were not guided by the Lord, as Swedenborg said he was. They could spend many years visiting the spiritual world, and still be mistaken in their understanding of how it works. If they believe in reincarnation, they will see only things that confirm that belief, because the very nature of the spiritual world is to present to people what accords with their desires and beliefs. It is the ultimate “algorithm” and “echo chamber.” Without divine guidance astral travelers, no matter how sincere they might be, are bound to fall into and confirm many mistaken ideas, one of the primary ones being reincarnation.
In response to this statement of yours:
Some Swedenborgians do mistakenly believe that Swedenborg’s writings came directly from the Lord, and are therefore true and authoritative in everything they say. But that’s just not the process Swedenborg himself describes. Rather, he says that the teachings of the new church came to him from the Lord while he was reading the Bible. Further, he says that this happened through a man (Swedenborg) who could receive these teachings intellectually and publish them in print. See True Christianity #779.
From this we can gather:
The fact that he received the teachings while reading the Bible is a critical distinction between what he taught and what is taught by pretty much everyone else who claims spiritual experience. Others teach based on their experience in the spiritual realm. Swedenborg teaches based on what the Lord showed him through the pages of the Bible. From a Christian perspective, the Bible is the Word of God, and the primary source for spiritual teachings and understanding. That is exactly where Swedenborg looked to form his teachings about God and spirit.
Swedenborg’s spiritual experiences themselves were not the source of his teachings, as he himself says. Rather, he said that without an understanding of the spiritual world and how it works, he would not have been able to understand what the Lord was teaching him in the Bible. Angels, he says, see and understand the real meaning of the Bible precisely because they are in spiritual light, not physical light. Without understanding the nature of spiritual reality, Swedenborg would have been immersed in the same physical-minded and literalistic interpretations of the Bible as the bulk of Christians today offer.
Another way of saying this is that Swedenborg’s spiritual experiences were like raw materials useful in building a house. But it was the Lord, through the Bible, who taught him how to build the house of a correct doctrinal system out of all those raw materials. Without that guidance, any number of shaky and haphazard houses could be built out of the very same building materials. And this is precisely what Swedenborg says happens when people who are in theological error get to the spiritual world and start “building” on their false doctrines there, just as they did here.
People who travel to the spiritual world and confirm a belief in reincarnation are doing exactly this. They are taking some of the same materials Swedenborg was able to build into a beautifully coherent system thanks to his guidance by the Lord through the Bible, and are instead building them into systems of belief that ultimately cannot stand because they are contrary to human and spiritual realities. Systems built around reincarnation are one major example of this phenomenon.
About the video, those seven planes of could be mapped onto various parts of the spiritual world that Swedenborg visited. Swedenborg says that there are three heavens, but he also says that there are three hells, and that there is a world of spirits in between. So even Swedenborg’s overall system consists of seven major levels. But these are not the same as the seven planes of existence described in the video. Those seem to stretch from what Swedenborg would call “the lower earth” through the world of spirits and up through the levels of heaven.
Of course, Swedenborg denied that people ever become God, as the video seems to say. But the angels of the highest heaven do have a very close relationship with God, such that they recognize that everything good and true in them is not their own, but is the Lord’s in them. To observers who want to believe that we all eventually re-merge with God, this might look like those angels have become God, but that never actually happens. And we also never lose our sense of identity and individuality.
There’s plenty more that could be said, but that’s enough for now.
Plus, (a big question put simply;) what are your/Swedenborg’s view’s on parallel universes? And parallel universes understood not just from a scientific perspective but also from a mystic/astral perspective.
Best wishes
Hi Anton,
Swedenborg, of course, didn’t say anything about parallel universes, because that idea was a couple of centuries in the future.
Personally, I think parallel universes are just a way to avoid accepting the reality of the spiritual world, and of God as Creator of the universe. It mostly functions as a quick-and-dirty way of explaining why we humans exist as intelligent creatures when our existence seems so spectacularly unlikely based on purely physical factors. If there are multiple, or infinite, universes, then it’s easy to say that we just happen to live in one of the ones that has life.
The only real “parallel universe,” I believe, is the spiritual world. But for people who don’t accept the reality of the spiritual world, parallel universes provide a stand-in. Unfortunately, these parallel universes are generally a pale shadow of what exists in the spiritual world.
Hi Lee,
I seem to get, what you’re saying and can say, that it’s a very satisfying answer!🙃
Tho, I’m still pretty confused about the video, specifically the terminology and scenery from the “fourth plane” onward. What would get the videomaker to say, what he says? There seem to be many documentations, using the same terminology. Was their state not modified, leading to them seeing just void, space and flying disembodied orbs of light, that they percieved as souls? In their concept, it makes total sense to see these things and describe them that way, but I still can’t make sense of this flying through space disembodied and enlightening about (seemingly) facts to then know everything there is to know and finally find peace in no emotion, no sensations and simply remerging with God. If like attracts like, and the highest desire is to do that, and through meditation, they reach this sort of state, then what happens?
I understand, that life won’t get stagnating, so we won’t be left with the choice to either fall into a soul-sleep and reincarnate unconsciously or to let go of everything and accept enlightenment…and then reincarnate consciously. But even though the number of planes (7) is the same in these new-age-kinda-beliefs and in Swedenborg, but I think, that from the third plane onward we reach planes, that Swedenborg doesn’t even describe these. How can these planes seemingly be beyond even the third Heaven? And how can these people access it?
Plus, just a separate question; Did Swedenborg also have the direct perception of what’s true, when he visited/entered the third Heaven, just like the highest Angels do?
Hope you can shed light on these conundrums!
Kind wishes
Hi Anton,
Those “higher planes” were the give-away that this is basically a Gnostic concept of enlightenment. Particularly the idea that emotion is absent. As if emotion were a bad and unspiritual thing.
The reality is that emotion—or better, love—is the core of who we are, because it is the core of who God is. Without emotion, there is nothing to move us. Yes, we would be disembodied wisps. In reality, we would not exist at all without emotion. It is a purely hypothetical state. It is a castle in the air with no reality. Without emotion, not only would we not be human, but we would be non-existent. Love and emotion is the spiritual substance of which we are made. Without substance a thing does not and cannot exist.
And if there is substance, there is also form. Substance doesn’t exist as some amorphous blob (though even that actually is a form). It exists in a specific shape and structure that expresses the nature of the substance, and gives it the ability to act. The human form is not arbitrary. It perfectly expresses the nature of our mind, and especially of our love. That’s why, through the human form, we can do all the things we want to do. Yes, even fly, though we require technology for that here on earth.
Love and emotion are also what draw people together with each other, and with God. If emotion were absent, there would be no attractive force that would draw us to God. We wouldn’t merge with God. We would just float away randomly both from God and from each other until we reached spiritual heat death, like the theorized ultimate heat death of the physical universe when everything is so thin and spread out that all energy is evenly and extremely thinly dispersed throughout an unfathomably large space.
The God of Christianity (and of Judaism and Islam) is a very different God. Read the Bible. God is not some dispassionate, emotionless, formless being. All of the human emotions are attributed to God in the Bible. The God of the Bible is loving and passionate, not dispassionate and intellectualized. Jesus himself was full of emotions right up to the very end, and after his resurrection as well. Emotion is the substance and energy of life. We have emotions because God has emotions.
The God of the Bible is also not some wispy, formless ball of light. The God of the Bible is a human being not only emotionally and intellectually, but anatomically. See:
Was Adam Anatomically in God’s Image?
The concept of the highest state of enlightenment and of re-mergence with God as an emotionless state free of all desires is lifeless and dead. It is the exact opposite of having life in abundance. It is drained of all life, because love and emotion are our life, together with the understanding and enlightenment that give them form and expression.
How do spiritual guru types arrive at these lifeless and dead conceptions of enlightenment? Probably by seeing that evil desires are destructive, and jumping to the false conclusion that this means all desires are destructive. They see half of the regeneration process, which, in the old Swedenborgian terminology, is “shunning evils as sins,” but they don’t see the other half, which is replacing evil desires with good ones, and living from the good ones instead, together with the good actions that replace the evil actions that come from evil desires.
This has been my own main objection to the popular understanding of Eastern religion ever since I was a teenager. Even back then, it looked lifeless and dead to me. It looked like it had only half the story—the intellectual, enlightenment part—and not the other half, which is the love and emotion part. Enlightenment without love is dead, just as faith without works is dead. Good deeds come from love. Enlightenment by itself produces nothing at all.
That is why the monks in their monasteries are largely useless. They take care of their own needs as required to continue living, but they do little for anyone else. They are cut off from the flowing life of human society. They are immersed in their own spiritual state and enlightenment. Really, it is a selfish way to live. It’s all about my enlightenment, not about loving or caring about anyone else. That’s why, Swedenborg says, monastics who stick to their celibate and cloistered lifestyle in the other life end out living at the fringes of heaven. Their loveless and somber character and mood conflicts with the loving and alive mood of the great body of heaven, so they can’t stand to live in heaven proper.
Make no mistake about it: spiritual growth is only secondarily about enlightenment. It is primarily about love. Remove love from the equation, and the enlightenment fails as well. That’s why these gurus who seek an emotionless existence end out being utterly mistaken about the spiritual realm and its levels. The lower ones they describe are not far from what Swedenborg describes. But the higher they go with their levels, the farther they get away from the reality.
The highest levels of the spiritual realm are the exact opposite of the formless and void description they give for them. The highest angels are the exact opposite of emotionless beings. They are, in fact, the people who have moved to the highest level of human spiritual development, which is the level in which love is placed solidly at the center of life. This level is closest to God because love, and not intellect, is the center of God’s life. Angels who are intellect-centered are not on the highest level, but on the middle level of heaven. And the lowest level of heaven is where angels who are focused primarily on outward behavior, not having opened up and developed the deeper levels of understanding and love, live.
However, the highest angels, whose lives center on love, are also the wisest of the angels, and they are the most powerful of the angels as well. They both understand life better than the angels on the lower levels and they are more effective at getting good things done, precisely because they put love first. Spiritual angels, who are the angels of the middle heaven, must think and reason and figure out whether something they hear is true or false. Heavenly angels, who are the angels of the highest heaven, simply perceive within themselves whether something they hear is true or false. They don’t even have to think about it. This is the meaning of Jesus’ words:
When heavenly angels encounter some idea, they immediately either say “yes” or “no” to it. They do not have to think about it. And they do not make mistakes and misunderstand it. They have a perception of whether something is true or false, good or evil, that comes from their heart, and ultimately from God.
This business of becoming emotionless and formless is an example of a basic error causing spiritual guru types to completely misunderstand the higher levels of spiritual reality. They believe that emotion is low, earthly, negative, and ultimately evil. As a result, they attempt to rid themselves of all emotion, and end out flying around in a formless, wispy, unreal mental state, which they mistake for the highest levels of spiritual attainment.
The reality is very different.
And on top of that, just for wider context, in these beliefs, the planes seem divided into three major planes (physical, astral and causal (, whatever that means)) and then the astral or spiritual plane can be divided into three again, the lower, middle and higher and then these three can all be divided into seven or fourteen or twentyone or…I think you get the gist.
Hi Anton,
Three is the fundamental complete number of all real things because it reflects love, wisdom, and action, which are the three essential elements of anything that is real, from God all the way down to rocks. (Though at the lowest level, action becomes function.) There are three levels of everything because the highest level reflects love, the middle level reflects understanding, and the lowest level reflects action.
“Physical, astral, and causal” is simply a listing of these levels in reverse order. The physical level is the level of action. The astral level is the level of understanding. And the causal level is the level of love. Love is the cause and source of all things.
Seven is also a number of completeness, which is why there are often seven levels or stages to things as well, reflecting the seven days of creation.
Multiples of seven (and of other numbers), such as fourteen or twenty-one, have the same basic meaning as their mathematical factors, which in this case are seven and two, and seven and three, respectively.
Two reflects love and wisdom, or good and truth. These two then flow into the third, which is action, and which expresses and completes them. This is why the marriage or mating of male and female results in the bearing of children. Neither one by itself is capable of expressing itself in reproduction and new generations of human beings (or other animals).
It is not coincidental that the prime numbers are the ones that have the most basic and fundamental meaning. These are the numbers that cannot be reduced or divided into any other numbers. The single digit primes—1, 2, 3, 5, & 7—are the most fundamental, and form the basis for most of the rest of the common numbers, of which they are factors.
All of the common numbers, and many that are not so common, are explained in Swedenborg’s theological writings. Each one has its own distinct spiritual significance. In its spiritual meaning, all of the numbers in the Bible express spiritual realities. This is the meaning that the angels see in those numbers. My father used to like to call it “the Swedenborgian numbers game.” 😀
I find Swedenborg’s explanation interesting. I quoted your post on Skeptiko.com; feel free to engage 🙂 http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/swedenborg-explains-past-lives-memories.1004/
Hi perandre,
Thanks. Looks like an interesting discussion going on over there!
Hello Lee,
What an interesting post. There were various things that came to mind as I read it. I’ll try to recapture a few of them.
It seems ironic to me that some of what you say fits very well with what C.S. Lewis says in “The Great Divorce.” The solidity of the people in heaven and the idea that people in hell can come to heaven, but that most choose to return to hell, for instance. Yet Lewis says in that same book, speaking of those who claim knowledge of what no mortal knows (ironically through George MacDonald who was something of a student of Swedenborg, I think) “l’ll have “no Vale Owens and no Swedenborgs among my children.”
A question that came to me is why you ( and Swedenborg?) believe that death ends all choices. Here we often change our minds. That is part of our humanity, as I see it.
We understand things better and come to different realizations quite frequently. And what choice have babies or toddlers who died young made?
Another question I have is whether God would really keep sin and evil alive forever by keeping evil people who can not be transformed alive forever. Sundar Singh, who also believed he talked with the dead and who was a loving man, believed he talked with Swedenborg who said that in the end all would return to God, if I remember correctly.
Finally, as far as I can see (certainly in looking at myself) it seems that most people are a mixture of good and evil. One would hope that in the next realm good could be strengthened and evil lessened degree by degree.
Hi Josie,
Thanks for your thoughtful comments and questions.
It’s been years since I’ve read any of C.S. Lewis’s books. However, I do remember thinking that there must be some influence of Swedenborg on them, even though Lewis rejected Swedenborg in the quote you mention. Perhaps the George MacDonald connection was the main conduit. It’s not something I’ve looked into.
Swedenborg’s greatest influence on society was not direct, but indirect through various writers, thinkers, and artists who read Swedenborg and expressed some of the concepts and ideas they found there in their own unique ways, and with their own idiosyncratic spin–influenced as well by many other thinkers and artists. The result is a human society that has been heavily influenced by Swedenborg’s writings even while most people have never heard of Swedenborg. So while it is indeed ironic that Lewis likely drew indirectly on Swedenborg while rejecting the validity of Swedenborg’s spiritual-world experiences, this phenomenon is quite common.
Today, the joke’s on C.S. Lewis. So many people have now had brief encounters with the spiritual world and come back to tell about it that Swedenborg no longer looks like an oddball. The main difference is that Swedenborg spent nearly three decades fully conscious in the spiritual world at will, whereas most people’s experiences of the spiritual world last only minutes, hours, or days.
I also suspect that Lewis’s explicit rejection of Swedenborg was meant to protect him from charges of accepting spiritists. Swedenborg was not a spiritist. However, among traditional Christians, anything that involved contacting angels or spirits was considered evil and demonic (even though it happens regularly in the Bible). So despite Swedenborg’s (indirect) influence on Lewis, Lewis had to insist that his literary forays into the spiritual world were fiction, not fact. This protected him from charges of spiritism and heresy.
Immanuel Kant did a similar thing when he wrote and published a small book called Dreams of a Spirit-Seer, which attacked and ridiculed Swedenborg. As Kant said in the preface to that book, he had to do this lest people think any parts of his philosophy that sound like things that Swedenborg wrote were actually derived from Swedenborg. Yet we know that Kant was fascinated by Swedenborg. It’s actually surprising how honest Kant was about his reasons for writing an attack on Swedenborg. However, his statement to this effect is so brief that it would be easy to miss it, and therefore to misunderstand what his attack piece is really all about.
People who wanted their writings to be accepted in the religious and scholarly world, and by the general public, had to deny any influence from Swedenborg especially if there was a clear, traceable influence to Swedenborg in their thinking. Basically, it was a CYA response. 😛
Hi Josie,
I wouldn’t say death ends all choices. Only the basic choice of which direction we want our life to go. And even that, I’ve come to think, is not linear, like releasing an arrow that will go in a straight line once released. Instead, our lifetime here on earth points us in a general direction, establishing what might be called a “cone of probability” within which we can still make choices and veer one way or another on our path, to eternity.
As a this-world example of how that works, those who choose nursing as a career and go through nurse’s training can become better and better nurses as they pursue their career, and they can move into one or another specialty in nursing, but they will never become doctors. In the same way, our lifetime here on earth establishes what “career” we will have in heaven. But within that career, there are still many choices, and many distinct directions we can go.
About babies and children who die, please see this article:
Where are my Children who have Died? Will I Ever See Them Again?
There is also more discussion of this issue in the comments section after the article. But the short version is that all babies and children who die go to heaven because they have not yet reached an age at which they are fully responsible for themselves and could make their own choice for hell instead of heaven. Heaven is the default option.
Hello Lee,
I thought I would change gears, come over and stretch my brain here a bit.
I, too, have an issue with the concept of spiritual direction being limited to the path one chooses during this one human lifetime. I am not standing in the reincarnation corner, yet I see actual validity in its belief in the context that, yes, people can change. If they choose to and are given the opportunity to, regardless of how much time it takes and under what circumstances it may occur, that is. If reincarnation provides the time frame, and therefore the opportunity, one must acknowledge the possibility that a person would change their ways and be destined for a different spiritual direction in the afterlife.
I see no reason that, if God values and respects our humanity to such an extent that he grants us life eternal upon the path we have chosen, God would not also grant us the opportunity to change our choice during the afterlife just as we can during our mortal existence, rather than lock us into the one he believes we simply want the most. After all, our mortal human life is riddled with fallibility, and one’s choice to be good or evil in his or her human life can change due to a life event, introspection, or spiritual rebirth, can it not? And such an influence would change one’s proclivity to act accordingly.
Can even God say someone would not change their life’s direction due to some future circumstance, and therefore be onto a different direction in the spiritual afterlife? Isn’t this what spiritual rebirth is all about?
But what happens when one loses their life prior to such change? What if they never reached a point during their life prior to death whereby they would make a choice which would determine a different spiritual direction and destination, Heaven or Hell?
Perhaps, during their life, a good person bound for Heaven in the afterlife experienced something so hurtful and chaotic they chose a new path of intentional harm to others and acts of malevolence in vindictive spite. Or, how about a person who has been basically on an evil path in life encounters a situation which makes them reach inside, acknowledge the error of their ways, and they consciously make a decision to correct and better their life?
If either of these individuals experience death prior to the life-changing point in time, each would be destined to the spiritual destination determined only by their life until the point of death. Would their spiritual direction be so ‘cut in stone’ that they could not achieve the same spiritual rebirth anytime during the afterlife, and therefore choose a different direction? Death occurs at all ages, and life-changing events, or spiritual path changing events, or results from introspection may not present opportunities until much later in one’s life. But, what if one doesn’t live long enough to experience those opportunities?
For example, is it fair for God to judge a criminal who does not survive a gunshot wound to be evil due to his life’s summation at the point of death and therefore direct him to Hell (because that is what he chooses at that point), versus the criminal who survived the gunshot and, while in prison, chose to take God into his heart and mind and repent for his sins, and therefore be directed onto a path in Heaven?
What if the criminal who died would have come to the same place spiritually if he had survived the wound and spent his mortal days in prison? Should he not be given the same opportunity to make a choice in the afterlife once he is there and can be exposed to the forces which may help him choose differently?
It seems that one’s spiritual direction is still linear like a released arrow, and one is never given the opportunity to ever choose their direction again after death.
Does time spent in the World of Spirits account for these scenarios? I’m not referring to the Stages of Outward Life versus Inward Life whereby one’s true self becomes exposed. I’m referring to points in time during the afterlife whereby one chooses to change their true self, just as they can here on earth.
Human, physical growth terminates upon death, whereas spiritual growth continues. You’ve stated this many times. Also, that as an angel’s spiritual growth continues, it also makes them more human-like. Well, to be human is to have the right to choose, as you’ve strongly asserted here. So to be human-like, would also infer the desire of, and the right of, choice.
But, that basic choice, the one choice that ultimately determines our spiritual direction, appears to be only available to us in mortal form, thereby stunting the growth path of our spiritual development.
That doesn’t seem right.
Hi Rich,
These are all very good questions. When it comes to the situations of particular people, we may not be able to answer them given the limitations of our knowledge. We really can’t know whether a particular criminal would reform if given another decade or two of life on earth. We also can’t know whether the same criminal would use those additional decades to plunge even deeper into a hell-bent life.
But God can know those things.
One of my fellow seminarians back in the 1990s believed that God’s omniscience involves being able to trace out all possible scenarios and see what they lead to. In this view, God is like a master chess player who looks at the current arrangement of pieces on the chess board and traces out a number of possible moves, and the sequences and results they would likely lead to, before settling upon a particular move.
In more general terms, it is a matter of faith in God’s ultimate goodness and love to believe that God will take every possible step to draw each one of us out of hell and into heaven. So if God sees that a particular criminal might have a change of heart and reorient toward heaven given another ten years, God will allow that criminal the ten years to continue living here on earth.
Our time of death involves a very complex web of events that can be very hard to trace. But God traces all of those events, and guides them intricately toward the best eternal outcomes.
The other side of the coin is that if God sees that a particular person will only plunge deeper into a hellish life by living here longer, God may allow (not cause) that person to die earlier rather than later to limit the damage and damnation.
Much of the answer to this particular question, then, boils down to whether we trust that God plays fair with us, and truly takes every possible step to pull us out of hell and move us toward heaven if we have any willingness at all to accept that guidance.
Hi Rich,
About changing our course after death:
Swedenborg is quite insistent that once we die, our “ruling love,” which is the fundamental motive of our life, and the driving force behind everything we do, cannot change.
This, he says, is because our life here on earth in our physical body and in the material portions of our mind forms a fixed container for our spirit. Even after we die, he says, we take a “a border” around our spirit “made of the finest substances in nature” (True Christianity #103). This border becomes like a skin defining the boundaries of our life.
A Biblical metaphor for this is found in the Parable of the Potter and the Clay in Jeremiah 18:1-10. As long as we are living here on earth, the clay is still soft, and can be reshaped. At death, whatever we have shaped up to that point is fired in the kiln, so to speak, and becomes a fixed container that can no longer be changed. Any attempt to change it would instead shatter it and destroy us as a person.
For many people this seems unfair and arbitrary. Why, as you say, shouldn’t people be able to change their minds after death? What if they might make a different choice?
Before rejecting Swedenborg’s statements on this (which, of course, you are free to do), consider these two thoughts:
1. If we are to be truly human, and capable of making an eternal choice about the direction of our life, the particular length of time we take to make that choice doesn’t really matter compared to eternity. If God set it up so that we had ten billion years to make the choice, would it really be any different than if we had 100 years, or even ten seconds, along with a high-speed brain enabling us to weigh our choices and make our decision in that brief time?
Any amount of time is still a mere blip compared to eternity. So the real question is not how much time we have to make the choice, but whether we humans can, in fact, make an eternal choice about the direction of our life. If the choice is always up for grabs, and never settled, then in effect we have no real freedom of choice. That’s because every choice we make can simply be undone later. Only what is eternal is fully real. Everything else goes out of existence so that it is no longer real.
2. Freedom of choice is only one kind of human freedom. It is a crucial freedom, but it is also a transitional freedom. It leads to the much more important freedom of being free to love, think, speak, and act in accordance with the choices we have made.
Let’s expand on the second thought with a practical example:
Let’s say you decide that astrophysics is your field, and that’s what you want to devote your life to. That would be a freely made choice about the direction of your life.
Now, although people do sometimes change career midstream, let’s say you remain an astrophysicist for the rest of your life.
Does this mean that you are no longer human because you’re not engaging in freedom to choose a different field?
Of course not.
What it means is that you’ve settled on a course for your life, and you are now in the next phase of freedom, which is the freedom to pursue that career and devote your life to it. Though you will never switch to a different field, you will continually develop in your skills and abilities in your chosen field based on your freedom to act in accordance with your choices.
Now, let’s say you make that choice in your early twenties. Would it feel like freedom if you spent the remaining decades of your life in a continual state of uncertainty about your choice and your direction in life, and were continually plagued with the idea that perhaps you should have made a different choice–that perhaps it was all a mistake and you should make a different choice?
No, it would not feel like freedom. It would feel more like a lack of freedom to pursue the course you have chosen with a clear and unobstructed mind and heart.
Part of the freedom that God grants us is the freedom, once we’ve chosen the basic course of our life, of being content with that choice and single-minded in living it out.
That’s how it is when we die and move on to the spiritual world.
It’s not that God won’t allow us to make a different choice. It’s that we have already made our choice, and and we’re now following it out without any second thoughts. It has become our life. We have no desire or intention to change. We are now living single-mindedly and contentedly in the life that we have chosen through our life here on earth.
Hi Lee,
Thanks for the response.
I bet there are a lot of Walmart greeters who would challenge your position here, in that their chosen vocation never involved Walmart at any level!
And, I was one of those who made a career choice in my twenties and know, all too well, the feelings associated with the lack of freedom you mention above. I’ve questioned my decision and career path in life many times over, and yet I am still here in the same vocation arena as I have been for over 25 years. I can’t tell you how often I’ve been plagued with the notion that perhaps I should have made a different choice, or that I still should – perhaps a lawyer or doctor, or even a saxophone player!
My point here is that the Walmart greeters perhaps never made a new choice and yet their path is currently one born from some event and the basic necessity to survive. In other words, circumstantial. My situation only feels like lack of freedom to choose, for I have the option to pursue a new career at any time if I choose to. (Succeeding is a whole other issue!)
I don’t quite buy into your statement “So if God sees that a particular criminal might have a change of heart and reorient toward heaven given another ten years, God will allow that criminal the ten years to continue living here on earth.” People die every day, some very suddenly and from extreme circumstances, whether they be health related or catastrophic events. Surely, all those people have not yet made their “life” choice to determine their spiritual path in the afterlife. Some may have, others, not. Most likely, the greatest percentage were still ‘work in progress’, And some of them may not have reached their choice for decades yet, or maybe next year, next month, or even maybe next week or tomorrow. And yet, their choice is gone. How is that, in any way, fair to assume their path at that moment is, or would be, the correct one?
I’ve seen people dying from illness embrace God as often as I’ve seen them curse and truly denounce God in defiant bitterness, None of them ever appeared to be living longer just to reach such a decision. And those who experience sudden death at any point during their lives seldom have the fortune of having made a choice that sets their spiritual path on the correct course, yet their freedom of choice is swept away during the event and their die is cast, so to speak.
Not to mention those who witness such events and whose lives are erratically impacted by them. Those things can change a person from good to bad due to hatred and remorse, or bring them closer to God due to acceptance, love and appreciation. Either way, none of that happens overnight, and yet they may meet their own death prior to such transition. Again, not a particularly fair assessment at the time of death to determine a definitive spiritual direction immediately thereafter to follow.
There should be no reason why God, who supposedly is the ultimate expression of love, would not provide, out of love, the opportunity for souls to be given any and all chances to experience the joys of both Heaven and Hell, spiritually, so that they may either remain steadfast in their position, or perhaps choose differently. At any time, multiple times. If arguing that whether 10 years or 100 years, or even one million years would, or should, be sufficient time to reach the proper ‘molding’ position during our mortal life, then you are omitting the most crucial aspect: Man is not perfect, and therefore could not counted upon to make the perfect choice.
Of course, this does bring about the problem of continual flux in never knowing if the right decision has been made or if a different one should be made. And, that every decision can be unmade given time to do so. Certainly a conundrum there, but I would not construe that as having no real freedom to choose, as you have stated. Instead, the aspect of reincarnation actually becomes more substantiated as a method to ultimately attain a position with God in Heaven for those who choose to. For those who choose not to, repeatedly experiencing life here on earth can certainly be construed as Hell.
It would be more sensible to take a position that, in the afterlife, as it is purported to be so indifferent from our mortal lives, our souls continue to have the ultimate freedom to choose not only among the variants of the spiritual life in which they exist, but also which life they wish to exist in at any given time since time is eternal.
That would be the ultimate expression of God’s love – to forever provide the freedom of ultimate choice in the realm of spiritual eternity.
Hi Rich,
Thanks for your reply. Of course, you’ll ultimately have to make up your own mind what to believe about the nature of our life here on earth and in the hereafter.
Just a few more thoughts:
The example of the astrophysicist was meant to refer to someone who has made a career choice that s/he is satisfied with and enjoys. Some people do make a career choice and never look back, not just for practical, financial, and social reasons but because they love what they do.
The choice we make here on earth is not an intellectual one such as “do I believe in God or not?” It is a choice made through our life and our actions. The fundamental choice is whether we devote our lives to serving others in some way, or whether we devote it to serving ourselves exclusively, and others only to the extent that we expect benefits for ourselves as a result.
This choice of the heart and hands tends to underlie other choices we make–such as whether a personal tragedy leaves us bitter and angry or prompts us to grow more compassionate toward others who have also suffered loss and tragedy. Such post-trauma choices and directions don’t happen in a vacuum. They are heavily influenced by the focus of our life up to that point.
About the circumstances of death, to us it does often seem sudden and without context. But God doesn’t see things that way. God is not surprised or caught flat-footed by anything we humans do or anything that happens to us. God has been preparing and providing for it all along. So the idea is that whenever a person dies, and under whatever circumstances, whether sudden and unexpected or long and slow from our perspective, God has been at work behind the scenes making sure the deceased person had an opportunity to make that life (not merely intellectual) choice before the point of death.
And if a person truly dies too soon to make that choice, such as in the childhood or teen years before reaching the age of responsibility, or never reaching adult capacity due to mental handicaps or overwhelming environmental forces preventing it, the default option is always heaven. In short, no one goes to hell who hasn’t specifically and freely chosen to do so. And God doesn’t send anyone to hell, nor require anyone to go there. People send themselves to hell, and freely go there if that is where they want to be.
Short version: Though it may seem unfair to our eyes looking from the outside at particular situations, from a spiritual perspective God provides fairness for everyone, no matter what the circumstances of their death.
I can’t prove this to you or anyone else. But I believe that a loving and merciful God would not allow things to be any other way.
Events and introspection can certainly change people, Lee. They can change them in their core; not necessarily a change brought on by making an intellectual choice, but a change in how their hearts and minds perceive and react to life and those around them.
I don’t believe that such change is simply underlined and heavily influenced by the focus of their lives up to that point. Some people transition to ‘find’ God and devote their lives to love who have never chosen a path of love of and devotion to their fellow man before. And just as familiarly, good people who demonstrate love and caring towards others in their pursuit of life enrichment can just as readily turn to a life of crime or ego-maniacal behavior after some traumatic event.
And these people are adults, not children or teens who have not reached an age of responsibility to properly make such life decisions.
Hi Rich,
Agreed on all counts. People certainly do make life decisions, and change them, in the course of their lives here on earth, and in response to the experiences that come their way. Otherwise what would be the point of our years here?
The question is, is there ever a time at which we can say that the decision has been made?
Does God (or the Universe) keep on sending us back until we get it “right” according to God’s idea of what’s right? Or can we make a decision for ourselves, and have it stick?
You mentioned earlier that we are all imperfect, and make imperfect choices. That is true. But they are still our choices to make.
The question is not whether we can eventually make a perfect choice. That’s not possible. We’re imperfect beings living in an imperfect society. The question is whether we can make a choice that we consider good enough, and stick with it.
Also, we are held responsible only for the level of clarity we’re capable of, and for the choices we’re able to make. It’s a sliding scale universe. Each of us finds our place according to the level of choices we are able to make.
On this, see the Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25:14-30. What we’re given does make some difference. But what we do with what we’re given, no matter how large or small, makes a much bigger difference.
Hi Rich,
I should add that the way people appear on the outside is not necessarily what they’re actually like on the inside.
When a traumatic event turns someone from being a good person to being a criminal or egomaniac, there are at least two possible interpretations:
1. The person actually changed from being a good person to being a bad person in response to that event.
2. The person was not actually a good person inwardly, even if it appeared so outwardly. The traumatic event merely ripped away the social mask to reveal the true person underneath.
Hi Rich,
Of course, all of this depends on scrapping the old view of hell as a place of flames, pitchforks, and torture where God eternally punishes the wicked for their sins.
That’s not what hell is like.
Instead, hell is the type of human community that results when the people in it are all bent on their own wealth, power, and pleasure at the expense of others.
For those in heaven, hell is not a pretty sight.
But for those in hell, it is a life that gives them great pleasure. That’s true even if their pleasure is mixed with the inevitable pain that results from violating the laws of life–and also from continually putting themselves in opposition to, and therefore in conflict with, the people around them.
For more on what hell is really like, see the article:
Is There Really a Hell? What is it Like?
Hi Lee ,
This conundrum of all babies and children being given the default into heaven seems unjust to me. For if a man or woman is to only have one life on earth and if all children get an automatic pass to heaven then it would have been better for everyone to die as a toddler.
Also we do not choose into which circumstances we are born into however those circumstances have very direct impact on the life we choose to live.
Also it has been shown that certain parts of the brain are responsible for guikt, remorse, and also for feeling love and happiness. Science has shown us that some people are born with or their brains develop in childhood not to feel these emotions.
Hi Joe,
Thanks for stopping by, and for your comment. It’s a fair point about babies and children getting a “free pass” to heaven, while adults get no such free pass. However, there are reasons, both practical and spiritual, that it’s not as unfair as it may seem.
Practically speaking, if everyone died in childhood, the human race would quickly cease to exist, both because there would be no adults to care for the babies and children and because few people would even reach childbearing age (which comes before adulthood, in the teenage years).
Spiritually speaking, here are two key points:
Clearly, if God is a God of love, then if it were better for us all to die in childhood, and all go to heaven automatically, God would arrange for Creation to work that way.
But it is through the very process of engaging in the struggle between good and evil, and making a free choice between heaven and hell, that we humans develop to our full human potential. A person who dies in middle age or old age having fought the good fight has developed a depth and strength of character that is not possible for those who die in infancy, childhood, or in their teens, who have not yet had the opportunity to fully develop their character in the rough-and-tumble of human society.
It is true (according to Swedenborg) that all children who die go to heaven. And the younger they die, the higher heaven they live in. However, though they live to eternity as adult angels, they retain a certain infant- or child-like quality to their character, and they therefore cannot do some of the more demanding and character-driven jobs that angels who have lived out their years on earth and fully developed their character can do. They have a very happy life in heaven, but it is not as full, nuanced, and complex a life as they would have had if they’d lived out their years and chosen good over evil, heaven over hell.
In short, there is a trade-off for dying in childhood and getting a “free ticket” to heaven. That trade-off is that we will never reach the full human and angelic potential that we could have reached if we had lived a full lifetime on earth.
Unfortunately, human life is messy. There are many ways in which we fall short of reaching our full potential. The love and justice of God is that no matter how long or short is our life here on earth, God brings about the best possible outcome for each one of us, given the imperfect—and sometimes really awful—circumstances of our lives.
About people being born into very different circumstances, and the justice of that, here are some articles that might help:
Here’s the short version: No one goes to hell because of the circumstances of his or her birth, or due to anything beyond his or her control. It is only our freely made choices made within the particular circumstances of our lives that determines whether we will spend eternity in heaven or in hell. And if, for any reason whatsoever, we are incapable of making a free and rational choice between heaven and hell, our default destination is always heaven, not hell.
In other words, no one goes to hell for reasons beyond his or her control.
I hope this helps.
Hi again Josie,
God doesn’t keep sin and evil alive. The people who choose hell do. God does keep them alive. But God still flows into them with love and wisdom–and nothing of evil. They themselves twist the flow of good and truth from God into evil and falsity. God will not snuff them out, nor will God force them to change and become good instead of evil, because that would take away their humanity. But this is already covered in the article above.
Sundar Singh did like Swedenborg, but he also came from a culture that believes in reincarnation and the ultimate return of all souls to God. Swedenborg actually went in the opposite direction in his writings. Early on in his spiritual writings he made some statements implying that all would eventually find their way to heaven. But later, after he’d spent more time in the spiritual world and had more fully gotten his bearings there, he came out categorically against that view, stating very explicitly that those who choose heaven in this life will remain in heaven forever after they die, and those who choose hell in this life will remain in hell forever after they die. Since Swedenborg spent several decades in the spiritual world while he was still alive, I doubt he would change his views after death (if the implication is that Singh spoke to Swedenborg in the spiritual world).
Yes, everyone here–and even in the spiritual world–is a mixture of good and evil. No one but God is perfect, or perfectly good. And pure evil is an impossibility. It would annihilate itself.
Even the worst demons in hell have a good and undefiled innermost level. Swedenborg sometimes calls this innermost level the “soul” when he uses that term in contrast with the “spirit,” which is our spiritual self as a whole. (Other times he uses the word “soul” to mean the same thing as “spirit.”) It is that innermost, undefiled soul in evil spirits into which God flows with the divine love and wisdom that keeps them alive forever. But that innermost level is closed off from the evil spirits’ conscious awareness because they have chosen evil, which looks only outward, and not inward. So other than keeping them alive, it doesn’t have much effect on their daily lives.
Also, even the best angels still have shadows of self-centeredness, greed, ignorance, and so on. Most of the time they are unaware of it. But occasionally they get a little too full of themselves, thinking they’re good by themselves (not from God), or that they are better than other angels and spirits. When this happens, they temporarily fall out of their place in heaven, and experience times of sadness and depression (mostly fairly mild) until they come to their senses and recognize that by themselves they’re still selfish SOBs, that anything good in them is from God, not from themselves, and that they’re no better than anyone else. Then they resume their joyful life in heaven, serving their fellow angels with love and humility.
And yes, angels do continually grow more toward love and light. There is no end to their increase in love, wisdom, understanding, and practical effectiveness in expressing these spiritual virtues in their lives.
Meanwhile, evil spirits are progressively held back from expressing some of their worst evil impulses, so that their evil tends to be moderated over time. But since they still get their pleasure from those desires, they still act on them as much as they can, and still remain in hell.
I hope this answers your questions reasonably well. It’s a complex, human reality, so even these answers are a simplified version of the great complexities of our afterlife in the spiritual world. Still, the basics are fairly clear.
And of course, it’s entirely up to you what makes sense to you and what you want to believe.
If this is the case, then what will happen to someone in hell who realizes the mistakes they’re making and realizes that good triumphs evil? Will they continue to live eternally in hell or will they get a chance to go to heaven?
Hi Luna,
People living in hell have already made their choice for evil. They have no desire whatsoever to change. Even if they are allowed to rise up into the light of heaven, where they can clearly see the insanity of their way of life, once they feel the pull of that life and descend back down to hell, they reject and laugh at what they saw from heaven, and go right back to their enjoyment of evil behavior and general mayhem, while excusing and justifying it in their mind.
The unfortunate reality is that they enjoy their evil and destructive ways, and they do not want to change.
Hi lee
If it’s true what you say and we as ‘angels’ are just going to be continually grow from gods love is there a point to this are we simply going to do this forever because it sounds like we won’t ever get to some destination if there is one. Are we merely suppose to be an expression of god for example and no more?
Hi Tony,
Great question!
We do have a destination: our community in heaven. Each of us has a home in heaven, where we will live with the people we love most, and the people who share our values, beliefs, and goals in life. So we’re not just continually traveling and wandering here and there–unless, of course, that’s what we love to do.
We also have a purpose in life, which in general is to love God and love our fellow human beings. In more concrete terms, our purpose is to serve God by serving other people in whatever ways we are best at. So our eternal life in heaven is an active one in which we have jobs, daily tasks, responsibilities, relationships, and all of the other things that make our life here on earth meaningful and fulfilling.
Yes, we do continually grow in love and wisdom. And in that sense we’re also continually on a journey. But that journey is more of an inward, spiritual journey. We’re continually learning more about ourselves and the people we see each day. We’re continually getting better at what we do, and even moving into more responsible positions as we’re ready to take them on. It’s not the sort of journey that has a specific destination except in the sense of setting personal goals for ourselves which we then seek to achieve.
It’s all about building a community of mutual love, understanding, and service. Life is about our relationships with one another and with God.
What’s the difference between reincarnation and eternal afterlife?
Hi Anirudh Kumar Satsangi,
Thanks for stopping by.
There are many differences between reincarnation and eternal afterlife. One, of course, is that reincarnation means that we re-enter a new physical body here on earth after we die, whereas in most conceptions of an eternal afterlife we continue living in the spiritual world after we die, and never re-enter the material world.
But I would say that a much bigger difference is that in Western conceptions of an eternal afterlife, we have one life in which we make our decision what sort of person we want to be, and then we continue to be that kind of person forever after we die, whereas in Eastern conceptions of reincarnation, we have many lifetimes, and ultimately we do not choose our eternal destiny, but only choose how long we will take (how many lifetimes) to get there.
Thanks for very nice reply. Enlightened Souls have eternal afterlife. Some times such Souls are sent on Earth to enlighten us. At that time such great Souls assume physical body and this process is known as reincarnation for such Enlightened Souls.
you said that if people choose hell that means they are there permanently but you also said that it’s possible to get out of hell could you explain this?
Hi Tony,
Thanks for your question.
Those who are living in hell permanently can sometimes temporarily leave hell if they have a good reason and God allows it. While they are out of hell, God puts them in a different state of mind so that they can handle the atmosphere of heaven or the world of spirits, and it will not painful to them as it ordinarily would be.
However, they can remain in that state of mind only for a brief time, since it is foreign to them. As soon as they start reverting back to their own state of mind, they go back to their own homes and communities in hell because that is the only place where they are comfortable and able to breathe freely.
While we are still living on earth we can, of course, be drawn out of hellish states by being reformed and reborn through our choice and our acceptance of God’s renovating presence in our lives.
And after we die, if we have a good heart but have fallen into bad habits or among bad companions, we may at first spend some time near or in hell, dragged down there by our bad friends and associates. There we will suffer hard and painful things until we are ready to give up our bad habits and bad companions. We then rise out of the hell–or out of the “lower earth” just above hell–to which we had been dragged down, and find our place in heaven.
However, this happens only for people who actually do have good and thoughtful hearts underneath their hard and misguided exterior. Those who have self-centered, greedy, and power-hungry hearts will find their place in hell, where they will stay forever.
I shared this idea with my husband and I said “Isn’t this fascinating?” he said “No, it’s ordinary” I said “What?” … after discussing it further with him he meant that to him it is so obvious that it’s “ordinary.” I suspect my question below has been answered in one of the comments here (but I haven’t read them all), so forgive me for asking again if that’s the case. Your argument agaisnt reincarnation makes a lot of sense, and you might have just changed th mind of a person (me) who has believed in it all her life. But, what about a child that dies at childbirth? before they have had a chance to “choose” to be good or bad? What happens to that soul if it doesn’t have a chance to come back to try again?
Hi Pamela,
Thanks for your comment and question.
I take it as a compliment that your husband thinks of the points in the article as ordinary. I also think of them as just ordinary common sense. I do understand, though, that many people see it differently.
To answer your question, a child who dies in childbirth will be raised by angels in one of the highest heavens, and will grow up in heaven to become an angel him- or herself. No one goes to hell unless he or she chooses as an adult to become a hellish person. Since children have not yet had the opportunity to do that, God’s love and mercy ensures that all children who die go to heaven and become angels.
For more on this, see the article:
“Where are my Children who have Died? Will I Ever See Them Again?”
I hope this helps.
The idea of eternal hell is unacceptable and no compassionate person has to explain why. That hell may appear eternal is another thing. Swedenborg’s accounts are still subjective, even though he may have explored heaven and hell for twenty-seven years, or however long it is claimed. It is possible that he has changed his mind and that those who relish the idea of condemning fellow humans to eternal hell (to prove their own eligibility for heaven) are the really hellishly minded. How could one sit complacently in heaven harping God’s glories knowing that innumerable souls are suffering in hell beneath one’s feet, so to speak? It would be like a rich man enjoying a feast indulgently while the starving looked on. I know all the arguments supposedly justifying eternal hell, because those confined there like it, supposedly, but it is nonetheless unacceptable. It cannot be so. My heart refuses to accept the idea, even if I might be intellectually convinced. The whole concept is totally repugnant.
Hi Clive,
Thanks for stopping by, and for your thoughts.
I understand that the idea of an eternal hell is repugnant to compassionate people. And I have no particular interest in debating it with you. It either does or doesn’t exist, regardless of our particular beliefs about it. And no one’s going to hell because they don’t believe in an eternal hell.
I would simply say that before even having a reasonable conversation on the subject, it’s necessary to jettison a lot of old and faulty ideas of hell, among which are:
For more on this view of hell, see the article:
“Is There Really a Hell? What is it Like?”
If believing in an eternal hell doesn’t work for you, I’m not going to waste your time or mine trying to convince you otherwise. It’s an understandable view. The idea of an eternal hell is horrible for those who have love and compassion for their fellow human beings. Historically, a certain number of Swedenborgians have been unable to accept this teaching.
If there is an eternal hell, it’s not because God or the angels want it to exist, but because the people who live there insist upon it.
Reincarnation is now a matter of scientific study.
Hi Anirudh Kumar Satsangi,
Thanks for stopping by, and for your comment.
Yes, some people are attempting to study reincarnation, the afterlife, and other spiritual subjects through science. However, as powerful as science is in studying the phenomena of the physical universe, science simply isn’t a very good tool for studying non-material realities.
Thanks Lee for your very nice views. I also agree that scientific verification and validation is not essential for studying non-material realities. But we should try to develop consensus over it.
Since we are discussing non-material realities, such studies (e.g., by Ian Stevenson) will always be declared “anecdotal” thus completely disregarded. However there are certain facts that cannot be denied: people have remembered factual information of previous lives, and in some cases have had complete recall or have been able to speak in a foreign language. Speaking in foreign tongues is recorded in the New Testament as well.
Emanuel Swedenborg, as far as I know, was given a very comprehensive explanation of this in his waking visions of the spiritual world. Simply put, in the spiritual world, spirits can share memory with one another, and spirits can also immerse themselves in the memory of a living person where they think they are that person. These are the lower order spirits, who are most often encountered in channeling and thus will vehemently support reincarnation, as they did with Swedenborg. However, it is nothing but shared memory. Swedenborg stated that communication was more open in ancient times, and thus “deja vu” experiences were much more common. Shared memory will always be with spirits who have a similar personality.
In the spiritual world, each person in the afterlife will belong to a particular society of spirits or angels, and thus will share their lifetime experiences with one another. If we consider such a society as a “group soul”, then yes, they will have the experience of multiple life times. But on an individual soul level, we all live just once.
So reincarnation, per se, is not exactly “false,” it is what I call an “appearance of truth.” It does provide strong evidence for an afterlife.
I have mixed feelings about reincarnation. My biggest issue is the fact we are to a great extent products of our environment. People who grow up in loving families or circumstances have an extremely unfair advantage over those who never had that. Yes, we have free will, but I’d bet my life if there was an inversion of circumstances, heaven and hell would probably be switching people. People like Charles Manson never really had a chance.
However, I’m not entirely sure reincarnation is fair either, or even a morally-sound doctrine. One example is many reincarnationists, relying on supposed advanced spiritual teachings, actually believe people, with the help of their guides, choose to incarnate as evil people committing despicable acts against others in order to learn ‘lessons’. Not only does this sound frightening to me, but also unfair to the perpetrator considering they’ll have to pay for the consequences of their actions. Don’t even get me started with children born with horrible conditions. Is this system any fairer?
The concept of Karmic Law also appears suspicious, considering new lives will always generate new karma to resolve. I’m also convinced unconditional love (Padgette called this Divine love) can’t be attained in attained in human form. The fact that even the most loving people are forced to reincarnate seems to support my notion here.
Furthermore, there appears to be no stability with spiritual teachings having reincarnation as their central doctrine. There are drastic differences concerning the average amount of time spirits spend in the afterlife between earthly incarnations. Newton claims it’s only seven years! Other teachings say centuries. Still others claim reincarnation occurs, but is unnecessary and rare (Imperator Band).
Other sources (Newton again) claims there’s no hell at all, all is light, and all are met with love in heaven regardless of what they did. Other teachings, as with Seth and Silver Birch, claim reincarnation as it’s known, does not occur. Instead they proclaim the real ‘us’ is our higher selves, and that we’re just expressions of it. Newton uses the higher self concept to claim we can reincarnate, but yet still be in the afterlife. I can list many more inconsistencies, but I don’t want write too much more on an already long post.
I want to add one more thing concerning science. I think it’s important to prove survival as a scientific fact, since in my opinion this would have drastic implications on the way humans live and treat others, and maybe even save our planet. If something exists, then it can’t be outside of science. I really do believe the scientific method can achieve this, and when you think about it it’s probably our only hope to change the current physicalist paradigm. The fact that mediumship and other psi can be hindered by natural phenomena on earth demonstrates to me what’s termed as spiritual phenomena is not transcendental, but simply difficult to research due to our present lack of knowledge and ability to investigate them.
Best wishes,
Jamie
I wanted to add a few things here others have not mentioned (hopefully I’m not typing the same message twice). Oblivion might be a better option, at least to me when I consider the following. It’s very obvious that to a great extent we’re products of our environments. Those who’d grown up in loving households and overall better circumstances have an unfair advantage over those who’d grown up in negativity.
Look at Charles Manson for example, he was beaten and raped by his prostitute mother’s boyfriends. He was beaten and raped by both inmates and staff while institionalized as a juvenile, and so on. Obviously such a person is not going to trust and love others. It’s kind of like beating a puppy from birth. Yes, if we have free will there can always be exceptions, but this still does not negate the fact some have to work much harder than others to achieve the same goal. The only thing I can hope is that mitigating circumstances are considered. According to the Padgette and Borgia material, help is available and people are helped out of hell.
However, I don’t see how reincarnation is any fairer, well at least depending on which doctrine you believe. Take one example here: some reincarnation teachings claim spirits at times, with help from their guides, actually choose to incarnate as evil people that’ll commit atrocious acts against others. There appears to be a dilema here considering such a spirit would have to pay the consequences of their actions. I believe it was the Michael teachings that claim we all must experience life as a man, woman, mother, father, poor, wealthy, victim, perpetrator, etc. the Seth messages appear similar. Sounds sick if you ask me, but many people believe this, and many spirits supposedly teach this ‘truth’. I think I’d rather oblivion if this is the case.
Let’s use some critical thinking here concerning whether reincarnation is a fact. Ian Stevenson is considered to be the pillar of reincarnation research, but there are holes in his best cases. The physical evidence appears to be shaky, so now we’re left to rely on anecdotal testimonies and spirit communication to steer us.
These are shaky too, for there’s too many inconsistencies here as well. Examples would be time between incarnations, reasons for reincarnating, higher selves, group souls and even the denial of hell. Near-death experiences are not reliable in my opinion either, and all one has to do is look at the contrast between Howard Storm’s NDE vs many others to catch my drift here. This is one thing I can say, there appears to be much more consistencies with non reincarnation teachings vs those teaching reincarnation. I’m still up in the air, but at this point I’d have to justify my scepticism of reincarnation until given a very good reason to do otherwise.
I wanted to touch on one more thing again using some logic here. This concerns science and spiritual matters. Anything that exists is a part of science, originally known as natural philosophy before the modern era and its scientific method. I believe the scientific method can at least prove the existence of the afterlife and other psi. In fact it’s our only hope of changing the current physicalist paradigm in science.
Proving the existence of the afterlife would have drastic implications regarding how people would live, treat others and the planet we live on. I think it’s a mistake to place spiritual matters in the category of transcendentalism. It’s also very obvious the latter can’t be true considering how natural phenomena on earth can drastically affect the quality of mediumship and other psi.
Either way, I personally am not scared of oblivion, nor do I feel it’s a bad option. It sure beats eternal hell and numerous incarnations of hellish lives. Reincarnation also appears to render the afterlife almost meaningless, being nothing more than a vacation rather than a place to continue life on a higher level with advancements. I thought I’d give people here something to think about.
Best wishes,
Jamie
Hi Jamie,
Thanks for stopping by, and for your thoughtful comments and (implied) questions. Since you are speaking on similar subjects in both comments, I’ll answer them both together—though probably in more than one comment.
The issue of spiritual fairness considering the radically different circumstances into which different people are born is a tough one. How can we say that someone born into poverty and abuse has the same shot at heaven and eternal happiness as someone who is born to loving parents and material sufficiency?
The basic answer, though, is that spiritually, we are “graded on a curve.” To be more clear and explicit: We are held responsible only for the decisions we ourselves make freely within the circumstances into which we were born. For some people who had a really horrific upbringing, that may be a very narrow area of freedom. But to state it from another angle, anything of our character that is due to our birth and circumstances, and not to our own decisions, is canceled out when it comes time for our spiritual judgment, and our sorting out into either heaven or hell.
For more on this, please see these two articles:
And you may also be interested in this article: If God is Love, Why all the Pain and Suffering?
The basic message is that we’re not held responsible spiritually for anything we’re not actually responsible for ourselves. If we are pressed to evil actions by overwhelmingly horrible circumstances that are beyond our control, we will not be held responsible for that. Spiritually, we are responsible only for the choices between good and evil that we are able to make within the circumstances into which we were born.
So although there really is no basic fairness to human life materially, there is spiritual fairness when it comes to what part of the spiritual world we will inhabit eternally.
Oh, and related to that, you might also find this article helpful: It’s not fair that God made some people incredibly beautiful, and others just average!
Following up on my previous reply:
As terribly unfair as at may seem to some people, we actually can’t tell from the outside whether horribly violent and malevolent people such as Alolph Hitler, Charles Manson, and Jeffrey Dahmer ended out in heaven and hell.
Yes, many people want them to roast in hell. And it does seem fairly likely that that’s where they are. However, the most we can really say is this: if they actually are inwardly what they appeared to be outwardly, then they are in hell.
But the fact is that we can’t actually tell from the outside whether they really are such horrible people spiritually as they appeared to be based on their words and actions. We can’t know for sure whether some external circumstances, such as those you describe in Manson’s upbringing, unhinged their minds and overwhelmed them, so that they were pushed over the edge into sociopathic insanity without having actually desired or chosen it for themselves. For more on this, see especially the Lee Boyd Malvo article linked in my previous comment.
After death, when we enter the spiritual world, we go through a process in which the outer layers of our personality is gradually stripped away, leaving only the true core of our heart and mind. Anything that we said or did purely due to harsh or overwhelming circumstances, and not really through our own freely made choices, will be stripped away as part of this process. What’s left will be that part of ourselves that we were able to choose freely within the circumstances into which we were born.
For more on this process, see: What Happens To Us When We Die?
For some people who were born into especially horrible circumstances, there might be a lot of stripping away to do, and that process may be long and painful, perhaps taking as long as what we would experience here on earth as twenty, thirty, or more years. And once it is finished, there may be a fairly undeveloped soul underneath. And yet, if that soul is, at its core, innocent, and did not actually do those horrible things through freely made moral choices, then that soul will eventually find his or her place in heaven, not in hell.
For more on what hell is like and how we get there, see: Is There Really a Hell? What is it Like?
Hi Jamie,
About scientifically proving the afterlife, I don’t really agree with you there.
First, the proper field of study of science is material reality. God and spirit, from my perspective anyway, are non-material realities. This means that science simply isn’t the proper tool to study them.
Beyond that, if there were overwhelming scientific evidence for the reality of God and spirit, it would tend to violate the spiritual freedom of scientifically oriented secular materialists. I don’t believe that God will force anyone to believe in God and spirit. Rather, I believe that God leaves us free to decide for ourselves whether we wish to believe in God and spirit. So I believe that it’s necessary for secular people to be able to accept scientific method and scientific conclusions without feeling that this requires them to believe in God.
In short, I think scientific “proof” of God and the afterlife would actually be counterproductive for many people.
Further, in science there really is no such thing as “proof.” Only more and more convincing evidence. However, history, and even the Bible itself, shows that those who do not want to believe in God will find ways to reject the existence of God no matter how miraculous or incontrovertible the “proof” seems to be. For example, within forty days of the ancient Israelites hearing God’s voice booming the Ten Commandments from Mt. Sinai, they had rejected God and the Ten Commandments, and had made a golden calf to worship instead.
Having said all that, you might be interested in my article: Where is the Proof of the Afterlife?
Hello Lee. It wasn’t my intention to make two long posts. I wrote the latter post because I had thought my former post didn’t register since I didn’t realize I had to be logged in with a gravitar account.
I had brought up the scientific method because I’m involved with a website known as spiritoday, and through there I get to have regular email exchanges with many scientists and other people working in nonscientific academical fields. These are people directly involved with the scientific research of psi, intelligent design and the afterlife.
However, even amongst them, there are vivid disagreements concerning intelligent design, paradigms in physics and of course reincarnation. Reincarnation by far appears to be the trigger issue more than anything else, and I’ve witnessed extremely hostile exchanges between otherwise intelligent and well-mannered people. I’m going to leave reincarnation out of this particular post in order to touch on the afterlife and its relation to science.
I’m not entirely sure it’s correct to assume there’s a ‘material’ and ‘transcendental’ aspect to existence. Where most of us are in agreement with is there are different frequencies to life, which include the ‘physical’ and various afterlife realms.
According to some physicists in my group familiar with quantum theory, the different frequencies of existence can be attributed to quantum theory. In my opinion however, I think Dr. Ron Pearson has by far the best and most detailed hypothesis regarding how physics, the origins of the universe and all ‘paranormal’ phenomena are intertwined. Dr. Neppe has his own hypothesis regarding the above, but his idea centers around both General Relativity and quantum theory. Pearson’s idea on the other hand rejects General Relativity, and replaces the latter with his own brand of classical physics known as ‘exact classical mechanics.
I don’t want to get too technical here, but I wanted you to know where I’m coming from regarding why I believe it’s a mistake to reject science being involved with afterlife research.
What currently makes psi and survival difficult to research is the butterfly effect and our current level of advancement. Furthermore, if Pearson is correct, different matter systems (probably better known to you as spiritual realms) are made up of finer atoms than our own, and interpenetrate each other without mutual interference. According to him, this is why different matter systems feel solid and real to their inhabitents. He also thinks certain aspects of quantum theory, such as Planck’s Constant, have different values in each matter system.
Obviously different matter systems would make researching them extremely difficult with our more course instruments. These matter systems would behave like they’re transcendental, but they’re actually not.
It’s difficult to explain my stance and the reasons for it since I base my opinions of off dozens of technical books I’ve read. However, I do agree with something you’d touched on, that at least for the time being, actual experiences will be the only thing to change the mind of sceptics rather than anything derived from the scientific method. Experimental controls will always be a source of conflict between sceptics and their opponents. I personally believe there will be a paradigm shift in science to support psi and an afterlife, but it’ll be a gradual one.
Best wishes,
Jamie
Hi Jamie,
It probably wouldn’t be very fruitful for us to debate our particular views of the nature of reality. However, I am happy to present Swedenborg’s views of the nature of reality for your amusement and edification if you’re interested.
In particular, I present the three general levels of reality in Swedenborg’s system in this article: Is Heaven Physical? Can Angels Play Tennis?
I don’t think science or reason will ever bring a person to a belief in God and spirit. But once a person comes to a belief in God and spirit, science and reason can provide much support to that faith.
Hi Jamie,
To respond to a few remaining thoughts in your comments:
Some Christians do believe in oblivion, or “annihilationism,” as it is known more technically. Some think this is what the Bible means by eternal death. Others, somewhat more mercifully, think, as you are suggesting, that the idea of an eternal hell is intolerable, and that it would be better for evil people simply to cease to exist.
Swedenborg, however, departs from the mainstream of Christianity by rejecting the idea of hell as eternal torment with flames and pitchforks. Rather, he sees “hellfire” as the continual rage and anger of people in hell against one another, and especially against God. And yet, according to Swedenborg, the evil spirits in hell do have some pleasures in their life, even if those pleasures are mixed with pain. Their lives in hell, he says, are not one endless experience of agony and torture, but rather lives of engaging in their sick pleasures, followed by the inevitable punishment and pain that accompanies them—punishment and pain inflicted, not by God, but by their fellow evil spirits in hell.
For more on this, see the article on hell linked in one of my previous responses.
Karma, as I understand it, is based on the simple reality of cause and effect. If we do good things, it will bring about good consequences, while if we do evil things, it will bring about evil consequences. That much is just common sense, and reflects the reality of the human situation.
Where I depart from it is on the idea that there is no way out of that cycle except by bearing the punishment for our evil deeds in a future life. From a Christian perspective, we can repent from our sins, and though there may still be some repercussions, spiritually speaking we will no longer have to bear the penalty, or punishment, for them. This is stated especially clearly in Ezekiel 18:21-23:
In Christianity as I understand it, there is no need to feel the evil effects of every wrong we have done because we are given the opportunity to repent from them and begin a new life right here in this lifetime.
And in general, as explained in the above article, I simply don’t see the need for reincarnation. I also don’t see the point of a reincarnationist universe. If we all end out re-merged with God in the end anyway, what is the point of this whole cycle of karma, with all of its pleasure and pain? What have we, or what has the universe, gained from the cycle if the end is the same as the beginning? It sounds to me as if God is just bored, and needs entertainment. But that’s not a good reason to create a universe that contains so much pain.
I hope I have responded to most of your thoughts in these comments. If there is anything I missed that you especially wanted a response to, please do let me know.
Thanks again for your thought-provoking comments! I hope my responses, and the articles linked, will help move you forward in your thinking on these subjects.
Hello Lee. I just wanted to add one more thing here. I’m getting ready to read some of your articles to understand Swedenborg better, because I’m simply not familiar with him. I’ll also need to admit that I have something of a confirmation bias to look at anything not teaching reincarnation. I justify my bias because I’ve already read many books claiming reincarnation is a ‘scientifically-proven fact’. The justification for this comes from both recalling another person’s life and birthmarks/scars matching wounds of the deceased.
I still don’t believe reincarnation has been proven, and there appears to be a major bias within most psi circles to support reincarnation.
My motivations led me to the James Padgette teachings, which is what I follow at the moment. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with his work, but if you are I was wondering what you think of his teachings. I suppose I’ll inevitably find out the more I read articles on your site. I’m motivated to get Swedenborg’s Heaven and Hell as well.
Hi Jamie,
About reincarnation, I would humbly suggest that the above article is probably as clear an explanation of Swedenborg’s general angle on reincarnation as you’re going to get. I don’t know how carefully you have read the article, but I would recommend a careful, thoughtful reading of it if you want the full picture on reincarnation from a Swedenborgian perspective. And of course, if you have any particular questions, I’d be happy to answer them to the best of my ability.
I have heard of James Padgett, but have not (as far as I recall) read any of his writings. Although I do think it is very possible for spirits to communicate with humans on earth, I don’t view such communications as a reliable source of information about the spiritual world, for reasons explained in this article: What about Spiritualism? Is it a Good Idea to Contact Spirits?
I see spirit communication more as a source of comfort, encouragement, and support than as a means of gaining knowledge about God and spirit. In other words, I see it as addressed more to the human heart than to the human mind. I am suspicious of spirit communications that purport to present a specific theology or spiritual cosmology.
Although Swedenborg spent nearly the last three decades of his life able to be fully conscious in the spiritual world, and associate with angels and spirits in their own homes and communities, he stated that he did not derive any of his theology or his Bible interpretations from spirits, but only from God.
In fact, I see it as a common error among followers of Swedenborg to take his stories of conversations with angels and spirits as constituting divine truth as if it were spoken by God. Angels may be far wiser than we are, but they are still limited and fallible in their understanding of things.
I would certainly encourage you to get a copy of Heaven and Hell and read it for yourself. It is, after all, the granddaddy of ’em all when it comes to detailed descriptions of the spiritual world. I’m not aware of anyone else who has even claimed to have the level, depth, and length (in years) of direct experience of the spiritual world that Swedenborg did.
You can find my book notice about Heaven and Hell here. If you’re on a limited budget, or simply prefer electronic books, you can download the full, annotated Heaven and Hell free in epub format, or the “portable” edition (which doesn’t have the scholarly introductions and notes) free in PDF or epub format, by clicking on the last link on my book notice linked just above.
Lee, I love your writing on reincarnation, its conciseness is very refreshing and like the leafs that are born again each spring to the tree, we to go through many manifestations during our lives. The fact that Jesus of Nazareth called himself the son of man and that he says that man is a beast is important and I believe can help with this wonderful teaching you have shared. I believe that Jesus of Nazareth did not become the son of God until he destroyed duality and attained unconditional love and that the resurrection is the choice to live a spiritual life. It then must be true that in heaven, we that have become one with Christ here on earth (no matter what religion we use) or in limbo (the realm or transition between earth and spirit world), we continue our growth towards unconditional love realizing that heaven is in us. I believe that our memories and our dreams are a blessing from our mother father God and if used with sincerity reforms man from a beast into a child of the eternal and infinite God of all creation. Blessings, Geno
P.S. I soon will be going to heaven while still here on earth, and I will be helping tech other how to do the same for 1000 years.
Hi Geno,
Thanks for stopping by, and for your thoughts. I’m glad you enjoyed the article!
You are welcome my brother, I love you.
I want to blow your mind?
I misspelled two WORDS in my post, therefore they became symbols. (TO and TECH) Latin symbols with Algebraic equivalent expressions.
TO
Spiritual growth never ends and therefore life is eternal.
TECH
How to walk between the 3rd and 4th dimensions.
Therefore, the errors in my post created symbols that are the Algebraic proofs of the literal concepts in the sentences where the errors occurred. If you study these symbols and algebraic expressions, I have no doubt you can walk like Swedenborg did. I will be part of the first resurrection and we have 1000 years to walk between the 3rd and 4th dimensions, come along friend!
Blessings Geno
Lee, are you afraid of being reincarnated into a much more brutal existence if indeed it is true? Swedenborg has a very standard Christian view, others who’ve seen the other world say much crazier things that also can’t be made up. There are are accounts that can’t be easily explained by Swedenborg’s brief explanation, like spirits lining up to return to this world and children who claim God forced them to be the child of a new family. Reincarnation is probably unimaginably complicated if it is real. My source is Raymond Moody, without his research into NDE’s I would’ve never taken Swedenborg seriously. Moody believes reincarnation is real but he is also a Christian and now apparently a Swedenborg follower. It seems many people are becoming Swedenborg followers because of NDE’s.
Hi Cristian,
Thanks for stopping by, and for your comment and question.
I’m not afraid of being reincarnated at all. As I said in the article, I don’t believe that reincarnation, as popularly believed, actually happens.
It is true that Swedenborg’s comment on reincarnation in Heaven and Hell #256 doesn’t deal with all aspects of reincarnation and why people believe it. But the other phenomena you mention are also explainable within Swedenborg’s general description of the spiritual world and the way the human mind works.
Raymond Moody is certainly aware of Swedenborg. He included a number of quotes from Swedenborg about the afterlife in his first book, Life After Life. I also attended a standing-room-only talk he gave at the former Swedenborgian Church in Boston not long after Life After Life was published. When he wrote and published Life After Life, he was not aware that Swedenborg’s writings were still in print, and that there were people who followed Swedenborg’s teachings to this day. But he said that by the time he gave that talk, he had received six or seven copies of Heaven and Hell, and didn’t need another one, thank you! 😉 But although he knows of Swedenborg, I would not say that he is himself a Swedenborg follower. He has come to his own particular beliefs based on his various researches into NDEs and other spiritual phenomena.
Still, it’s quite true that Moody’s books, and NDEs in general, have opened many people up to Swedenborg’s teachings about the afterlife, Christianity, and spiritual reality in general. And of course, Swedenborgians were quite excited to have others confirming what Swedenborg had written two centuries ago, and Swedenborgians had believed all along.
For the reasons detailed in the article, most Swedenborg followers continue to believe that reincarnation as popularly believed does not actually happen. However, if you do believe in reincarnation, I have no particular desire to debate it with you. As is also stated in the article, even if (as I believe) reincarnation doesn’t actually happen, there’s a reason so many people believe in it, having to do with their need to feel that there is some ultimate justice beyond the appearances of this unjust world.
Well would you mind giving your opinion on why Raymond Moody’s “most amazing NDE” Eben Alexander, is now saying that he himself believes in reincarnation and “everyone must return”. If you skip to 49:45, he says it and even says that Jesus taught reincarnation. I’ve heard that before but I’m shocked to hear it from Eben. Thanks.
Hi Cristian,
Unfortunately, the brief experiences in the spiritual world that NDEers have is not enough for them to gain a full understanding of the spiritual world. NDEers often come back with mistaken ideas about the afterlife, influenced by their previously held beliefs, or by ideas that were in their heads at the time of, or even after, their NDE happened. So although NDEs are a good source of confirmation of the reality of the spiritual world, they are not necessarily a good source of information about the nature of the spiritual world.
Specifically on the issue of reincarnation, that is a very popular belief among many “spiritual but not religious” people today. And as explained in my article, What about Spiritualism? Is it a Good Idea to Contact Spirits? the spirits we encounter in the spiritual world will tend to confirm beliefs we already hold or already lean toward, whether or not they are actually true.
Swedenborg, by contrast, spent many years (almost three decades) exploring the spiritual world and building a more comprehensive picture of what it is like. For more on that, see: Do the Teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg take Precedence over the Bible? starting with the section titled, “2. Swedenborg’s experience in the spiritual world was unique in known history.”
You might also be interested in the series of videos reviewed in this article: A Short(ish) Video Course on Near-Death Experiences.
Hi All,
On the subject of reincarnation FWIW I would just like to say I don’t and can’t buy it purely on simple reasoning alone!
If you don’t have a CONSCIOUS recollection of a previous life or lifes then what would be
the point of being reincarnated numerous times? Reincarnationists apparently think that what one did in a prior life somehow effectively translates from the subconscious into consciousness so that then we will “learn” from a past life experience in our now present life and make corrections, improve ourselves, apply ourselves differently, think differently, become a better person, treat people differently, etc.
But to learn something, really learn anything, you have to consciously be aware of what you’re trying to learn!
Applying simple common sense level logic then again how could you CONSTRUCTIVELY learn from something that you did in the past without being absolutely aware of EXACTLY WHAT it is you did in a now conscious state? The answer is you can’t!
To me the whole reincarnation thing flies into that one big fat facet of logic alone and goes splat!
Reincarnation: DOA for this guy! I hope we all consciously learned something today. 😉
FranklyFrank
Hi Frankly Frank,
Thanks for your comment.
That never made any sense to me either. It always struck me as unfair and not particularly useful that I would be either enjoying this life or suffering in this life with no recollection of why I was in this situation, or what I had done to put me in it. Part of life is learning from our mistakes. But if we don’t even know what mistakes we made (in a past life), how can we learn from them?
Hi Lee,
So, how do know, for sure, that is not EXACTLY what is happening to you right now?
You just might be on your third, fifth or ninth time around! ;-p
Hi Rich,
If so, I’m blissfully ignorant of it! 😉
What’s your take on all the research and reports of certain young children supposedly being vessels for previous souls? The most overwhelming evidence seems to be related to some children possessing and exhibiting knowledge/behavior from a past life. This aspect does fade as the child ages and becomes their own person, though it is strongly prevalent early on in some.
Why would it not be conceivable, or possible, God’s ‘spark’ of life, our soul, may not always be a completely new occurrence? Perhaps there are situations whereby existing heavenly souls are given opportunities to try again, even if through the process, there is no permanent knowledge or experience retained?
Re-purpose it and reuse it! Maybe God is a conservationist and has a ‘going green’ philosophy!?!?
Hi Rich,
Good question.
Children—especially young children—are often more sensitive and open to spiritual influences and presences than adults are because children have not yet been fully thrown into the material-world responsibilities and focus that consume most adults’ working lives. Therefore it is quite common for children to have spiritual experiences, and to become aware of the angels and spirits that surround us all. (For more on this, see: What about Spiritualism? Is it a Good Idea to Contact Spirits?)
Adults tend to chalk up childrens’ spiritual experiences to “an active imagination.” But what if the children really are experiencing things, and people, from the spiritual world?
My take on that research, then, is the same as my take on other “evidence” of past lives. It’s quite possible that the children that are the subject of this research do exhibit knowledge and behavior from “a past life.” The fallacy is in jumping to the conclusion it’s their own past life rather than the past life of some angel or spirit with whom the child is in communication.
Also, according to Swedenborg, the human proto-soul builds the human body to its own specifications, so that a person’s body corresponds fully to his or her soul. For a soul to be “repurposed” to go with a different body would involve that soul losing its distinctive identity, and becoming something and someone else. Why would God go to the trouble of creating, forming, and developing a new soul, only to mash it up, lose all that distinctive development, and make it into something else?
Yes, that does commonly happen to us during our lifetime here on earth. But by the time our life here on earth is over, the human clay that has been formed and re-formed has been “fired” into a particular form, and is no longer subject to such re-shaping and re-forming.
Maybe God simply does or allows some things simply because even omnipotence can becoming boring! ;-p Besides, I would think nothing is of any ‘trouble’, effort or consequence to one who is infinite in every sense, no?
Or, maybe God has a sense of humor and does some things for pure amusement? How else would you explain a platypus? LOL!!
Hi Rich,
I’m reluctant to respond seriously to your bit of fun here. Are you invoking the platypus god? 😛
Oh, and I didn’t mean “trouble” literally, but rather if God accomplishes something, why would God then undo it? Is God self-annihilating?
No, not self-annihilating, nor implying fallibility either. But, perhaps opting for a tiny rub of the celestial eraser simply due to change of mind or heart, perhaps if just for fun? Even the grandest of architects make changes along the way!
And, seriously, how can one not consider God having a sense of humor when looking at a platypus and contemplating its existence? ;-p
“In the doctrine of reincarnation, we are not given that freedom—which means that ultimately, we are not really human.”
Isn’t the freedom to change their minds robbed from people who enter an irreversible hell? It seems absurd to me that any human would willingly, knowing the full repercussions of their choice, choose suffering over bliss.
Hi laurisolups,
First, it’s necessary to understand that the descriptions of hell in the Bible and in other sacred literature are not literal, but figurative. Evil spirits in hell are not actually eternally roasted on spits over fires stoked by devils with pitchforks. They live what to them is a fairly ordinary life of fighting, stealing, swearing, sleeping with prostitutes, and so on. The “hellfire” mentioned in the Bible is a metaphor for the burning hatred and anger for each other that characterizes hell. For more on this, and on hell in general, please see: Is There Really a Hell? What is it Like?
The evil spirits in hell could leave if they wanted to. But they don’t want to because living anywhere else is torture for them. Occasionally they are allowed to go up to heaven. But if they don’t have protection from the Lord, they feel the warmth of mutual love in heaven as agonizing, torturous, frying heat, and they can’t even breathe there, so they fling themselves back into their own hell where they are comfortable. Even if they do have protection from the Lord, it soon wears off, because their own evil nature reasserts itself and rejects God’s protection.
So it’s not really “choosing suffering over bliss.” It’s choosing getting pleasure from evil rather than getting pleasure from good.
Unfortunately, when we choose to get our pleasure from evil, the evil we do carries consequences, and in effect punishes itself. So in getting our pleasure out of theft, murder, rape, and so on, in the spiritual world if not in the material world we bring the resulting pain and punishment upon ourselves. So whereas heaven is a continual cycle of more or less joy as we continue our spiritual growth process to eternity, hell is a continual cycle of pleasure alternating with pain. But the evil spirits love their particular sick pleasure so much that they put up with the pain just so that they can have their moments of pleasure.
My general point in the above article, though, is that if there were not some point at which our choice becomes final, it would not be a choice at all. There must come a time when we can say, “I’ve made my choice,” and go on to live the life we have chosen. Otherwise it would not only be the evil spirits in hell, but also the angels in heaven who could never just relax and live their lives. There would always be the lurking possibility that they would lose what they have. And that, I believe, would be far more cruel than having a deadline (death) by which time we must make our choice one way or another.
As the saying goes, a deadline has a marvelous ability to focus the mind. And, I would add, focus the heart as well.
Questions and comments from someone who supports the concept of reincarnation:
If God gave us free-will, shouldn’t we be free to reincarnate into new physical bodies as many times as we want for the purpose of learning and growing? Why should we be limited to just living out a single life in this physical earthly existence only to just die and spend the rest of “eternity” in those higher realms of existence? That doesn’t sound like we have free-will to me.
And regrading Swedenborg. He was raised in the Christian faith. So maybe what he learned and experienced during his many “spiritual journeys” were filtered and colored by his Christian faith. I heard what people experience in those higher realms depend greatly on their belief systems. For example, a Christian and a Muslim would have completely different experiences if going out-of-body. Maybe that’s why Swedenborg never talked about reincarnation even after his spiritual journeys because as a Christian, the concept would be almost foreign to him.
Also, just because Swedenborg’s spiritual experiences are well-documented doesn’t mean he has the final say on whether or not reincarnation exists! Plenty of people who’ve astral projected and had other spiritual experiences are convinced that reincarnation is a real phenomenon that should be taken seriously.
Hi Samuel,
Thanks for stopping by, and for your comment.
Of course, as I said in the article, you and anyone else who wants to believe in reincarnation is perfectly free to do so. This article represents not only Swedenborg’s views, but my own views on why I do not believe in reincarnation. And the ultimate denial of human free will is precisely why I simply cannot accept reincarnation, as I explained in the article.
It’s a fair point that Swedenborg came from a Christian background and would therefore be predisposed against reincarnation. And that probably did color what he saw in the spiritual world. However, it’s not true that he never talked about reincarnation. He did talk about it quite specifically, as covered in the article, and specifically rejected it.
And it’s not as though he didn’t reject many of the beliefs he was brought up with in traditional Christianity. In fact, he rejected most of the major doctrines of the Protestant (Lutheran) Christianity in which he was raised: the Trinity, original sin, justification by faith alone, penal substitution, and so on. So the idea that he rejected reincarnation just because that’s what he was taught to do as a born and bred Christian is not a very strong argument. Swedenborg was not at all shy about rejecting traditional Christian dogmas when he believed they were mistaken and wrong. But his stance against reincarnation is solid and unequivocal.
About Swedenborg’s experiences in the spiritual world and their reliability, see this article: “Do the Teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg take Precedence over the Bible?” Short version: Swedenborg had far more direct, fully present, fully conscious experience in the spiritual world than anyone else in history ever even claimed to have had, as far as I am aware. In his nearly three decades of regular full consciousness in the spiritual world, traveling there and talking to its inhabitants, both Christian and non-Christian, he had plenty of time to get the lay of the land and see how things work there. And he reported that reincarnation as popularly believed in various cultures does not happen.
But once again, you are free to believe as you wish. Thanks again for stopping by, and for your thoughts.
Hello Lee. Thanks for expressing your view so clearly. I seem to find various pointers toward reincarnation in Swedenborg’s writings. Here’s one from Heaven and Hell: “Because we have corrupted ourselves by living contrary to the design that reason itself has recommended to us, we cannot escape being born into total ignorance, so that we can be led from there, by divine means, back into the pattern of heaven” (from the end of Section 108 in the Portable New Century Edition.) I’m transcribing from an audiobook, so I may not have gotten it down with the proper punctuation.
Hi Richard,
Thanks for stopping by, and for your comment.
In my experience, people who believe in or lean toward reincarnation tend to see pointers toward it everywhere. In my view that’s because (as expressed in the above article) reincarnation, though it doesn’t actually happen as commonly believed, does reflect the reality of spiritual rebirth. That’s what Swedenborg is talking about in your quotation from Heaven and Hell #108. He saw that “leading back into the pattern of heaven” as something that happens primarily during our single lifetime on earth, and then, for those who have chosen here to move toward God and spirit, continues to eternity building on the foundation laid during our earthly lifetime.
Hello again, Lee. Thank you for your reply!
I find that people with a firm belief in anything–e.g., in reincarnation, in non-reincarnation–tend to see confirmations of it everywhere, so I need to draw my own conclusions. Thank you for helping me do that.
You say in your article that Swedenborg overtly dismisses reincarnation numerous times in his writings, but you quote just one passage from him on the topic. You surely know Swedenborg much better than I do, as I have read only several of his books so far, but I am not yet convinced that Swedenborg opposed reincarnation and even find numerous reasons to think that it is compatible with his teachings–perhaps even entailed by them–whether or not he himself overtly affirmed it. Could you please direct me to some of Swedenborg’s overt rejections of reincarnation so I can examine the passages in context for myself?
Thank you very much for your help!
Hi Richard,
Here they are. I’ll provide links only for the more elliptical references that have some relevance to reincarnation, and quote, with links, the more direct statements. That way you can read them all for yourself. I should add, though, that there are some things in these passages that may be unclear without a background in Swedenborg’s theology and his teachings about the afterlife and about the relationship between the spiritual and physical worlds and the people in them. If there’s anything in particular that you need explained further, please don’t hesitate to ask.
First from Swedenborg’s published works:
Arcana Coelestia #2477–2478, 4459:2, 5865, 5858, 5990, 6212:5.
From Heaven and Hell:
From True Christianity:
And finally from Swedenborg’s unpublished works:
Spiritual Experiences #2021, 2247, 3019, 3285, 3917, 3963, 4198, 4207, 4225.
Spiritual Experiences is a personal journal Swedenborg kept of his experiences in the spiritual world, which he never published but often drew on when composing his published works.
Most of the passages I have not quoted are either about what happens when spirits flow into the minds of people on earth from the spirits’ own memories, causing confusion, feelings of deja vu, and a belief on the part of the person on earth that he or she has lived a previous life on earth; or they are about evil and physical-minded spirits who desire to return to earth, and therefore desire to possess people on earth; or they are about spirits who were able to experience the physical world through Swedenborg’s eyes, and how novel this experience was for them.
The general picture that arises is that Swedenborg saw reincarnation as a fallacy and a fantasy that is caused by spirits flowing into the minds of people on earth with the spirits’ memories of their own past lives on earth, causing the people on earth to think that they themselves had lived such previous lives, and had therefore been reincarnated. And also that he saw a desire on the part of spirits in the spiritual world to return to earth as a physical-minded and materialistic desire present only in evil spirits who preferred their life in the physical world to the life they now have in the spiritual world.
By contrast, good spirits and angels have no desire whatsoever to return to the physical world. For them, life in the spiritual world is so vastly better than life on earth that it would feel like returning to a dark dungeon compared to the beauty, light, learning, and love that they experience in the spiritual world—which they see as their true and eternal home.
Further, they are able to progress spiritually so much faster in the spiritual world than they did in the material world that returning to earth would be like putting the brakes on their spiritual growth and slowing it to a crawl compared to the much more rapid pace of spiritual growth that is possible in the spiritual world. So the idea that we must return to earth to continue our spiritual growth and our spiritual journey is, from Swedenborg’s perspective, a major fallacy.
Hi Richard,
I should add that besides the passages quoted and linked above in which Swedenborg specifically mentions reincarnation (and rejects it as a fallacy and a fantasy), and speaks of related matters, there is the vast weight of his teaching about our life on earth being a preparation for eternal life in heaven, and that whatever our life has been like on earth, that sets the course on which we will remain to all eternity in the spiritual world. For example:
Swedenborg is so consistent on this pattern of one life on earth followed by eternal life in either heaven or hell that no one with a reasonable knowledge of his teachings could come to any other conclusion than that he completely rejected reincarnation, and that it is entirely incompatible with his theology.
Of course, people can still believe in reincarnation if they want to. But the idea that there is any support for it in Swedenborg’s writings, either explicitly or implicitly, is completely unfounded. Everything in his writings supports the opposite conclusion: that we have a single lifetime on earth followed by an eternity in either heaven or hell.
Hello!
if then reincarnation does not exist, what does it have to say about known cases of reincarnation
for example, that boy who remembers to have been pilot of the air force in another life, is a very well-known case
Hi Claudio,
Thanks for stopping by, and for your comment.
Did you actually read the article? (I know it’s a long one.) The phenomenon of people “remembering past lives” is covered there. Short version: They are experiencing other people’s memories, not their own. This can easily take place in the atmosphere of the spiritual world. There memories can be shared in such a way that the person that they are shared with experiences them entirely as if it were their own memories of things they themselves had done, when in fact it is another person’s memories of that person’s experiences. When people “experience past lives,” they are experiencing this phenomenon.
In short, “past life regression” or “memories of past lives” are simply the memories of other people that are experienced as if they were one’s own memories.
hey!
I read everything! and I agree with you
tell me, the people who leave (our parents for example) stay in touch with us and are taking care of us?
in relation to reincarnation, I heard theories of when we were born with certain scars on the body or with certain physical problems was due to some that happened in a past life, is it true?
Hi Claudio,
Yes, I believe that the people such as our parents who love us, and die before us, are still with us in spirit, helping us. But for the most part, we’re not aware of their presence. And they are not aware of our physical presence in the ordinary way we’re aware of other people here on earth. Rather, they can sense and sometimes even see our thoughts and feelings, and can be present with us in an inward way, giving us aid, comfort, and inspiration from within our spirit.
And no, I don’t believe that scars or marks or physical problems we are born with are due to something that happened in a past life. Jesus addressed this idea directly in this exchange:
His disciples thought this man had been born blind because of his parents’ sin or even his own sin—which would have had to have taken place in a previous life, since he hadn’t even been born yet, and could not yet have sinned in this life. In reply, Jesus said that neither of these things were true. Rather, Jesus said, he was born blind so that God’s works might be revealed in him. And then he proceeded to heal the man’s blindness and restore his sight.
how come you are not aware of our physical presence? they do not know that they are dead and alive?
I thought they were always by our side! 24 hours a day, you know? who were always aware of our joys and sorrows, and in moments of sadness they helped and gave signs.
Hi Claudio,
Yes, they are aware of our joys and sorrows. And they do give signs, but mostly by opening our mind to see the signs that are already there all around us.
They are no longer living in the physical world, but in the spiritual world—which is the world of the mind. So the things that go on in our mind, such as our joys and sorrows, our thoughts and feelings, our loves, intentions, and desires, are in the light for them. But the things we say and do physically are in the shade for them because they are no longer living in the realm of physical things.
they do not come what we’re talking about, okay. but do they come where we are for examples? If I’m in Brazil, does he know that he’s in Brazil? if I’m on an appraisal test, do they know?
Hi Claudio,
For people living in the spiritual world, it doesn’t matter where you are physically. They are with your mind and spirit, not with your body. So no matter where you are on earth, they can be with you if they care about you and feel a connection to you.
About the test, they are only dimly aware of the test itself, its subject matter, and so on. But they are aware of the feelings you have about the test. For example, if you’re nervous about it, they can sense that, and can help to put you in a more positive frame of mind, which will help you to prepare for it more effectively and do better on it.
what you think about joão batista and elias?
and shanti davi?
Hi Claudio,
Is there something particular about them that you’re interested in?
i read about shanti davi and it seemed to be very true
Hi Claudio,
I will have to look into it before giving any answer.
Hi Claudio,
Are you talking about the Shanti Devi known for remembering a past life? I have no particular reason to doubt that she remembered the things she described about the life of a woman who had died several years earlier than Shanti Devi was born. However, I think what actually happened was that that woman’s memories were transferred to Shanti Devi’s mind so that Shanti Devi remembered them as if they were her own experiences even though they were actually the other woman’s experiences.
Your idolatry of freedom and love of the tortures of those in Hell is appalling. If being human is really as you describe, then i would rather not be human. If being free really implies the ability to seal myself in the lake of fire forever and ever with no possibility of escape, then i sincerely hope that I am not free.
Hi The Iron Knuckle,
Part of the problem is a wrong understanding of hell in traditional Christianity (Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant, and their offshoots) due to a literal interpretation of statements about hell in the Bible that are meant to be read metaphorically. For example, there is no literal fire searing the flesh of evil spirits in hell. Hellfire is not physical fire, but spiritual fire, which, in a negative sense, is the rage and anger of evil spirits against one another. I can assure you that no one is literally roasting in flames in hell, and that to evil spirits in hell, their lives seem quite normal, even if not always comfortable. For more on this, please see:
Is There Really a Hell? What is it Like?
Hi lee
I am sorry about getting the wrong article,
So the question was ,
How come people claim to have past life memories of atlantis?
I know swedenborg said that it was all spirits fault when it comes to past life memories, but that leads to the second question
Can spirits create false memories to trick us for their amusement ?
Secondary questoo
Hi AJ749,
Yes, it would be a simple thing for spirits to create false memories. Swedenborg describes the equivalent of spiritual “movies” in which angels create very lifelike scenes for instructional purposes. And he describes evil spirits creating fantasy personas and scenes in order to entrap people. The same could be done to create a “past life regression” of a life that never existed, in a place that never existed.
Even if a particular “past life regression” is based on another spirit’s earthly memories using the mechanism Swedenborg describes, as covered in the above article, it would be easy for the spirits infusing those displaced memories to modify them according to the expectations of the person on earth who is “experiencing” them. If someone believes there was a lost world of Atlantis, spirits can mine the person’s thoughts and memory for everything in it about that “lost world,” and create a lifelike version of it for the person to “see” and “experience.”
Remember, the spiritual world is a mindscape. Everything there is created according to the contents of the minds of the people who live there.
If a spirit can imagine a situation or scene, that spirit can also present a lifelike, fully immersive experience of that situation or scene. And deceptive spirits love to create such scenes that will confuse and mislead people on earth who don’t have the knowledge or experience of the spiritual world necessary to understand what’s going on, but will simply accept uncritically as ultimate truth anything those spirits show them.
Even here on earth we are getting more and more skilled at creating movies that “recreate” scenes that never actually happened. Movies an TV series create whole worlds that never existed, and whole cultures of people who never existed.
Spirits, who live in the world of the mind, have far more powerful techniques to create fully realistic, fully immersive experiences of events, scenes, and people that never existed or took place. This ability is used by angels and good spirits to teach and instruct, but by evil spirits to deceive and entrap.
Ah ok, that makes more sense now
So for people like Edgar Cayce, madame Blatavsky and more occult channlers like themselves when they talk of atlantis they are using some real and and fake information.
Real in the sense that Plato created the story of atlantis
But fake in the sense that Spirits / devils took that and created fake memories and such about it ?
It does sound a little dishearting and worrying that spirits / devils could have that power to do that.
As much as Cayce , Blatavsky and many other new age channelers are wrong its a little sad to see how much they believed these that these lies were true
Hi AJ749,
Yes, just as movies and television shows can and do use a mixture of reality, fiction, and fantasy, so “past life experiences” and channeled material are most likely a mixture of reality, fiction, and fantasy. And just as the plot and scenery of movies reflects the mind and imagination of the movie’s creators, so “past life experiences” and channeled material draw on the minds both of the spirits on the other side and of the still-living people who are having the experiences or channeling the material.
All of this is why it’s not a good idea to base our beliefs on information received through spirit contact.
Still, for people of good heart and good intention, the damage done will be minimal. People can believe all sorts of completely wrong and even nutty things, and still be good, thoughtful, kind, and loving people. In the end, it’s what’s in our heart and what we do, not what we believe, that determines our eternal home. Yes, there’s a whole lot of spiritual misinformation out there. But even misinformation can often serve as “truth” for people of good heart, who will interpret it in the best light and find inspiration in it to be kind, loving, honest, and so on. God can turn even falsity into good if the person’s heart is good.
It is only when the person’s heart is evil and selfish that falsity will lead into deeper and deeper darkness and evil. A person whose heart is evil will eagerly glom onto any falsity that supports and justifies his or her selfish and greedy desires. That’s when spirit contact and channeled material becomes really dangerous.
For the rest—the good-hearted people—God is able to minimize the harm of false beliefs because whatever the beliefs may be, these people have the good of their fellow human beings in mind, and will love and serve their neighbor as Jesus commanded, regardless of those false beliefs.
Having said that, of course true beliefs are better! For more on this in the context of true and false Christian-oriented beliefs, please see:
Does Doctrine Matter? Why is it Important to Believe the Right Thing?
Hi lee i find swedenborgs and spiritualists show that the interaction between spirits and humans both children and adults make up much of what people tout as evidence for reincarnation .
Much literature from swedenborg scholars and spiritualists provide large amounts of evidence to show reincarnation is false
One bit if evidence though that confuses me is when birthmarks are found to correspond to the previous person who the child remembers to be , what are your thoughts on this lee ?
Hi AJ749,
I’d have to see the specific cases.
How do we know that the birthmarks actually are the same on two individuals, and not a false memory of the previous person in the mind of the person who had the “psychic regression”? Are there historical records (photographs, paintings, written descriptions) of the birthmark on the previous person independent of the memories of the person who went through “psychic regression”? In most cases of supposed matching birthmarks, I suspect there’s no objective evidence for the claims.
But even if there is objective evidence, who’s to say that trickster spirits didn’t just look for some earlier person who has similar birthmarks, and plant memories of that particular person’s earthly life in the mind of a person who goes through “psychic regression”? Once some idea becomes a “thing” in the minds of people who believe a particular doctrine such as reincarnation, trickster spirits are perfectly happy to “confirm” that idea in people’s minds by various devious means.
Hi Lee in Dr ian Stevensons book about reincarnation he found corresponding Birthmarks / deformities on person A that corresponded to how person B died
Hi AJ749,
Possibly true. But then my second point above may apply. Trickster spirits could have arranged to implant person A with memories from person B in order to set the whole thing up.
Beyond that, if you search hard enough, you’re bound to find at least a few individual instances that seem to confirm a particular theory. But as the saying goes, correlation does not imply causation. It could just be a coincidence.
Or there could be a third factor at work causing the correlation. For example, person A was spiritually attracted to person B because of the connection between person A’s birthmarks and person B’s death, and this led to person B’s memories being infused into person A.
Hi Lee do you thibk that the trickster/confused spirits could produce the deformities themselves via stigmata as many spiritulist explanations for it say the confused spirits are the reason ?
Hi AJ749,
It’s possible. Psychosomatic phenomena are a known reality. Whether spirits could produce physical birthmarks on a developing infant, I don’t know for sure. Another Swedenborgian writer, Ian Thompson, seems to support this idea in his 2012 article “Appearances of Reincarnation.” Where I do agree with him is that if birthmarks can be caused by spirits or spiritual forces, reincarnation is certainly not the only possible explanation.
Isn’t it possible that Swedenborg was just an intelligent person with plenty of time on his hands as he got older, that may have been convinced that he was receiving revelation from God, but mistaken? It may all have been just his thoughts and dreams on religion/ the meaning of life etc.
Hi Eric,
That is a question you will have to decide for yourself. There will always be alternate explanations for writings and phenomena that, to a receptive person’s mind, suggest or demonstrate the reality of God and spirit. This is to preserve human freedom in spiritual matters.
It is also a product of human freedom in spiritual matters. People who reject the reality of God and spirit will exercise their minds to come up with alternate explanations, and then present them as if they were obvious scientific fact. For example, materialistic scientists and doctors who do not believe that near-death experiences are actual experiences of the spiritual world will explain them away as hallucinations caused by an oxygen-deprived brain, even though that is pure speculation, and they have no way of actually knowing that that’s the case. People who have had both hallucinations and near-death experiences will generally say that the two are very little alike, hallucinations usually being hazy and confused, while near-death experiences feel even more real than ordinary waking consciousness. But that doesn’t stop materialists and skeptics from going to the “hallucinations of an oxygen-deprived brain” explanation over and over. They need a way to explain away the experiential evidence of the reality of the spiritual world provided by near-death experiences, and that is the one most of them have settled upon.
In the case of Swedenborg’s spiritual-world experiences, there have been many alternate explanations given by people who either don’t believe in the spiritual world, or who don’t believe that God and the spiritual world are anything like what Swedenborg describes in his theological writings because they hold to a different (usually traditional Christian) theology.
Of course, Swedenborg was immediately charged with insanity. Stories were circulated of his going mad and doing crazy things. But no one who actually knew him provided any support for these stories. On the contrary, they described him as perfectly sane and lucid, unfailingly polite, and a fine conversationalist to boot.
There were also those who charged Swedenborg with making it all up in order to make a name for himself. But usually people who engage in that sort of trickery are constantly talking about themselves and their wonderful discoveries to anyone who will listen, in order to puff themselves up. Swedenborg, by contrast, when invited to parties (he was a popular guest) would talk thoughtfully and intelligently about whatever happened to be the topic of conversation, be it current events, politics, science, or philosophy. He avoided talking about himself or his spiritual experiences unless someone asked him a direct question about it. Even then, if it was apparent that the person just wanted to make fun of Swedenborg, he would put them off, sometimes with a pithy retort that shut them right up.
Then there are those who, similar to your question, say that everything Swedenborg experienced was a product of his own mind. Maybe he did have experiences like the ones he describes. But they were mere mental projections rather than actual experiences. Swedenborg took them to be real when they were just tricks of the mind, or more positively, mental journeys that illustrated certain human realities and experiences. There are whole biographies of Swedenborg by people who don’t accept his writings and teachings as genuine that take this view. Some of them even express admiration at the remarkable human insight contained in Swedenborg’s spiritual experiences, while not accepting them as experiences of an actual afterlife. Of all the explanations for Swedenborg’s spiritual experiences offered by those who don’t accept them as actual experiences of a spiritual realm, this is probably the most sophisticated, and the least easily disprovable by reference to Swedenborg’s historically known person and character.
That is why you’ll have to decide for yourself what you will believe.
Swedenborg himself certainly believed, and affirmed in all earnestness both in his writings and verbally near his time of death, that everything he wrote in his theological writings was entirely true, and that people who doubted him would find this out for themselves after they die. Of course, since we on this side have not died yet (at least, most of us haven’t), we don’t have that particular verification of his veracity. Meanwhile, here is one of his published statements along these lines, from his first published theological work:
In other places he says that his writings will shine brightly for those whose minds are open to and eager for spiritual truth, but will seem dull and opaque for those whose minds are focused only on material things.
Taking this as a cue, my suggestion for you is that you read Swedenborg’s writings for yourself. See for yourself whether they make sense to you and provide soul-satisfying answers to your deep spiritual questions. Even more, in your day-to-day life, walk the path of “regeneration,” or spiritual rebirth, that Swedenborg describes and recommends. See if it doesn’t lead you in a better direction, toward becoming a better person, even if the path may go through some dark and rocky places along the way. If it makes you a better, more thoughtful, more compassionate, and more broadminded person here on earth, then you have already reaped its rewards even if it turns out that Swedenborg was totally wrong, and at the time of our death we are just snuffed out like a candle.
But if he is right, then a far greater life awaits us, and everything we have experienced and done here on earth will take on a far greater, and eternal, meaning.
Thanks for the honest answer Lee. I have taught myself to be skeptical because I believe it’s an important characteristic for discerning truth. Usually, I think it’s healthy. I’ve really been searching for evidence of God. I want to do right in the world and make a difference. It’s true, I need to decide which path to take.
If everything in the Bible and what Swedenborg writes is true, then I want to share the gospel the best way that I can. I would want to serve God to the best of my ability every second I’m alive. I’m willing to put in the work to study theology, science, and philosophy. I’ve been doing this outside of my job doing graphic design. I’d like to combine my skill with graphic design to promote my beliefs. I want the world to be a better place and for everyone to love each other. Even without religion, the idea of loving your neighbor has an impact on society for the better. This is why Swedenborg’s writings have resonated so far, despite having heard them from second hand sources such as your website and youtube.
It seems as if there’s nothing more important than discovering our purpose here. It frustrates me that so many people try to ignore this and go on with their life without any direction. I’m starting to understand that I’ll never be 100% mathematically certain about it, though I am leaning towards theism and more specifically Swedenborgian theology.
For the past 2 years, I’ve constantly immersed myself with opposing views from atheists and professional apologists. At first, I only wanted to listen to Christian apologists and ignore the other side. I thought atheists were just evil, selfish, or mislead. But in order to try and evangelize to them, I discovered that I needed to let go of my fear of hearing “the devils side” and research why atheists believe what they do.
So after watching a vast number of theist vs atheist debates I realized that both sides seem to have good intentions. The kalam cosmological argument, moral argument, fine-tuning design argument….all of these pointed to a creator until I listened to the other side. Apologists do seem to assert “God did it” whenever they can’t come up with a better answer for why, instead of saying “I don’t know” like Atheists would. To me, this seems more intellectually honest. Atheism probably would be my position if I hadn’t stumbled upon this website, Lee.
Everything I’ve read on here has been enlightening. To you, even atheists can get to heaven if they believe it’s for the good of others. That was an amazing article! In addition, solipsism was something I’d never heard of. The idea that we can’t prove anything beyond our consciousness made me re-think scientific claims. It really is all about what evidence we are willing to accept. Near death experiences seem to be good evidence. The testimonies I’ve heard appear truthful. Swedenborg seems to be completely sane and aware of how people would view his writings. The idea of a God tormenting people to a literal hell doesn’t make much sense. Everything seems to be adding up for me. I believe Swedenborg’s writings have given me hope and truth. I’m so thankful for finding this site.
Hi Eric,
Honestly, considering my analytical mind, if I hadn’t grown up with Swedenborg’s teachings or at least found them when I was young, I’d probably be an atheist myself. However, although there have been some challenges along the way, mostly personal life-based ones, nothing that’s come along from the atheist camp has come close to being as satisfying on all levels as what I learned growing up in a Swedenborgian household and church. In fact, reading atheist material has only confirmed me in believing that the old “Christianity” is badly mistaken, and that what I was taught growing up is indeed true Christianity. I should add that my view of Swedenborgian beliefs has considerably broadened and deepened over the years since the time I was young and didn’t have much experience in life.
About your natural skepticism, I agree that it can be a good thing, as long as it stems from a desire to learn what is actually true rather than from a desire to reject anything that can’t be proven through the physical senses. Here is a relevant passage from Swedenborg, in the context of explaining Exodus 7:12, in which the Egyptian magicians match the miracle of Aaron’s rod becoming a snake:
Based on this idea, I would encourage you to test out what you are learning here, and (I hope) by directly reading Swedenborg’s works, against contrasting and opposing viewpoints. Only after we have considered various possibilities and options can we have a really sound and well-founded understanding of and belief in the truth.
Even Swedenborg should be read with an open and analytical mind. Swedenborg was not infallible, contrary to the beliefs of some conservative Swedenborgians. See:
Do the Teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg take Precedence over the Bible?
No matter what the source of a particular idea, we should turn it over in our own mind and come to our own conclusions about its truth or falsity.
Having said that, once we have adopted a broader structure of truth in our mind, it becomes much easier to evaluate many particular ideas as to their truth or falsity without having to go through a complicated process of mental analysis each time. Even if I disagree with Swedenborg on some particular points, the overall structure of truth and reality that he presents provides, for me, a sound framework in which to evaluate various claims and ideas that come my way—including, ironically, from Swedenborg’s writings themselves.
Back to the question of skepticism vs. faith, as I’ve mentioned to you before, one major caveat is that if we are willing to accept only the evidence of the physical senses, then our mind will not be able to accept spiritual truth, but will confine itself to material things. For more on this, see some fascinating statements in Arcana Coelestia #2568 and 2588, on “the affirmative attitude” and “the negative attitude.”
And about some of the most common arguments atheists make against the reality of God and spirit, see my five-part article starting with:
God Is Unconvincing To Smart Folks? – Part 1
Really, I have a lot of sympathy for conscientious atheists. In general, they reject God because the God that has reigned in religious thought for many centuries is indeed irrational, and in many cases horrible; and the doctrines taught as “Christianity” are not only irrational, but unbiblical. I see the modern atheist movement as a tool in the hands of God to smash the false travesty of “Christianity” that has reigned in the Western world for nearly 2,000 years now.
Swedenborg predicted that existing Protestant doctrine would lead to atheism. Now he’s proving to be prophetic on this. If you read anti-God atheist diatribes, they’re all about how horrible is the God of Protestantism (and of Catholicism, and to a lesser extent of other religions). And the fact of the matter is, that God is horrible. If any human king were to kill his own son as a precondition for declaring the rest of his subjects not guilty of their crimes, and not subject to the death penalty, we would consider that king to be an insane madman. Once you peel away the apologetics and state traditional Christian doctrine in plain and blunt language, the God described in Protestantism especially, and to a somewhat lesser extent in Catholicism, is an insane madman. Atheists have recognized this, and want nothing to do with that bloodthirsty God. I don’t blame them. As one of my seminary professors used to say, “I don’t believe in the same God they don’t believe in.”
Though at one time we Swedenborgians thought that our beliefs would “leaven the loaf,” and Christianity would thereby be saved, I am increasingly of the opinion that all of the old institutions of “Christianity” will have to die, and several generations will have to pass, before true Christianity can be established in any major portion of society. The old and utterly corrupt institution that has called itself “Christian” for so long has so poisoned the well of Christianity that it will take a long time, perhaps centuries, for that poison of false and unbiblical doctrine to be flushed out of Western consciousness so that a true and genuinely biblical Christianity can finally be established in the culture. And now that “Christianity” has spread to nearly all corners of the globe, the same process will be necessary worldwide.
About being “100% mathematically certain,” in light of the quotation from Arcana Coelestia #7298 above, I doubt that 100% certainty is a healthy thing. When we’re 100% certain, we’re not open to new possibilities, or even to a broadening of what we do know and understand. Scientific exploration is based precisely on not being certain, but on seeking answers to questions we’re uncertain about. Why shouldn’t spiritual exploration be the same?
Our human minds, together with our experience of life, are limited and partial. An abstract way of saying this is that our human mind is finite. God alone is infinite. This means that our grasp of reality will always be limited and finite, no matter how much we’ve learned and understood. There will always be far more for us to learn, and some of it will contradict what we previously believed to be true. So it is always good to allow some uncertainty in our minds to make room for new discoveries and for correction of our existing ideas and beliefs.
This doesn’t mean we have to go through life being radically uncertain, and never settling upon any truth at all. I believe that there is a reality out there that we can discover, and learn more and more about. We can gain a general idea of how reality works, and fit various aspects of reality into that overall picture. And we can be fairly certain that what we see and believe is correct. It may be that new discoveries don’t exactly make prior beliefs wrong, but rather bring them to a whole new level.
An example in science is Newton’s flat, mechanical view of gravitation and physics vs. Einstein’s “curved,” relativistic view. Newton’s theories weren’t so much wrong as they were limited in their scope. In our ordinary day-to-day life at ordinary human scales, Newton’s theories and formulas work just fine. You need Newton, but you don’t need Einstein, to design a car or house or a factory assembly line. But on a larger, cosmological scale, Newton’s formulas begin to break down. Mercury’s orbit does not do what Newton said it should because it’s so close to the sun that relativistic forces cause its orbit to depart from Newtonian mechanics. And if we tried to send a rocket to the moon using Newton’s formulas rather than Einstein’s, the rocket would miss the moon altogether and fly out into space.
In the same way, as we move to a deeper and broader spiritual understanding, we don’t necessarily have to throw out everything we’ve learned; but we do have to be open to the possibility that our current views are limited in scope, whereas broader views are necessary to see the broader picture that our sight was too limited to see previously.
And then, of course, there are beliefs that are just plain wrong. Such as the idea that God is three Persons, or that we are saved by faith alone. Just as some scientific theories are simply wrong, so some religious beliefs are simply wrong, and must be left behind.
Meanwhile, as long as we have some faith that there is a reality (in this case, a spiritual reality) out there for us to explore, we can and should use the minds God gave us to their fullest potential in seeking out greater knowledge, always with the attitude of seeking out the truth wherever it may lead us.
What Swedenborg adds to this picture that is not present even in our current scientific and philosophical world view is that in the end, it is not our thinking mind, but our beating heart that will lead us toward or away from the truth. The fundamental question of human life and its direction is not whether we discover, believe, and understand the right thing, but whether we have the good of our fellow human beings at heart. When our desire is to live from love, concern, and compassion for others, this will lead our mind to seek out the truth that can guide us into good and constructive ways of serving the people around us, and serving humanity in general.
In Swedenborg’s abstract language, truth loves good, and good loves truth. If our heart is good, we will seek the truth, and desire to be guided by it.
Meanwhile, evil loves falsity, and falsity loves evil. If our desire is only our own benefit, with no care or concern for the wellbeing of others, we will glom onto all sorts of false and even insane ideas and philosophies in order to justify our selfish and evil behavior.
However, much of the world is stuck in an in-between place, in which the heart is good, but the mind is misled. This is a case of what Swedenborg calls “falsity that does not come from evil.” People believe what they’re taught by their churches, and accept it because the minister or priest told them so, but it does no major harm to them spiritually because their heart and their intentions are good. This is why people of all religions, and even atheists who reject God and spirit altogether, can go to heaven. If their intentions are good, and they make a decent effort to actually live from those good intentions, they will find their way to heaven after they die. And after they die, the false ideas they had innocently imbibed from their teachers will melt away as they joyfully receive the truth that accords with the love in their heart. I believe this will happen in the afterlife both for traditional Christians and for good-hearted atheists.
Meanwhile, I, too, am glad that you have found this blog and the other Swedenborg sites on YouTube and such. Though people who innocently believe false doctrines can indeed go to heaven, it is far more powerful and soul-satisfying to have a true understanding of how God and spirit work. See:
Does Doctrine Matter? Why is it Important to Believe the Right Thing?
This has gotten long. Though there’s always more that could be said, I’ll leave it at that for now.
Meanwhile, is any of your graphic design work posted online somewhere that I could take a look at it? Thanks.
Lee,
Sorry for the delay on getting back to you. I literally just graduated from college earlier this month.
My intentions are good and I strive to be the best person that I can for other people. I think it’s the best way at becoming successful. However, and more importantly, seeing the effect of impacting others in a positive way is incredibly fulfilling. Part of my skepticism stems from the verse from Peter, basically saying to have a reason for the hope that you have in Christianity. Ever since reading that, I wanted to have the best reason to defend my beliefs. Your website has helped tremendously.
As far as graphic design, I have a demo reel that focuses on motion graphics (2d animation and typography) as well as video editing and green screen compositing. But I’m capable of other still graphic design work. Here’s the link: Vimeo.com/leekerekes.
On here, I’ve used Eric as my pen-name. I’m more comfortable on here now, so i’m fine sharing my work with you. I hope it’s at least entertaining.
Hi Eric,
No problem. Congratulations on graduating college! That’s a great milestone. I hope you’re able to move on to work that you find satisfying. Nice demo reel. Yes, entertaining! 🙂 And I’m glad our website is helping you to “have a reason for your hope.”
Thank you!
I like reading this article. So many people who write about reincarnation as if it is fact. It has never been proven, nobody has seen it happen and anyone who has had contact with their loved ones in the afterlife, has been able to contact them because none of them reincarnated into another life. But yet they still talk about it. It makes no sense why anyone would return to earth after being in paradise with their loved ones? I know I don’t, I want to be with my wife and enjoy heaven, not magically shoot into another life and become someone else. That’s just wrong. Didn’t Jesus talk about our eternal progress and the afterlife in the gospels?
Hi Donovan,
Good point about contacting loved ones in the afterlife. For people who have experienced true love, reincarnation can only be depressing. And I agree about not wanting to return here after experiencing paradise. It would be like returning to the dark confines of the womb after running free in the open air and sunshine.
Offhand, I can’t think of passages in which Jesus speaks of our eternal progress in the afterlife. But he speaks often about our eternal life. He doesn’t say anything about returning to earth in a different body.
Just now seeing this reply lol. Thanks for your response, I saw a video and someone asked, if we reincarnate multiple times, who would we be in heaven? The host or the video said we would be all of them…we could have been a man, woman, gay, etc…we would just be the essence of all of those people. I can’t get my head around it, I have experienced true love like you said and that would be absolutely devastating not to be with my lovely wife when we pass on. I don’t want to be a bunch of people in one soul/spirit. I want to be who I am and my wife to be herself.
Hi Donovan,
Part of being human is having a distinct personality and character, which we build up over time through our experiences and choices. It is not possible to change that into something else in a blink of an eye. It would be like changing a leopard into a chicken, or a cat into a zebra.
Also, especially in the spiritual world, but to a great extent even here on earth, our body is a direct expression of our character and our soul. You can’t take a man’s mind and put it into a woman’s body. A female body cannot express the mind of a man, and vice versa.
I am aware of the occurrence of gender dysphoria. But that is a dysphoria, and not the common state of human beings. In fact, those who experience it have precisely the problem of feeling that their body is a different gender than their mind, making it a wrong and inappropriate expression of their mind.
In other words, you can’t just mash together different genders, sexual orientations, characters, and so on into a single soul, and then mix and match different bodies arbitrarily with that mixed-up soul. That would be a prescription for confusion and schizophrenia, not for spiritual wholeness.
That makes a whole lot more sense than that video 😀
Hi, you already know I oppose reincarnation. But I dont know if you’ve heard of afterlife researcher/author Roberta Grimes. She’s very spiritual and follows the teachings of Jesus but I wanted your opinion on her about something. She seems to talk about reincarnation a lot and it annoys me. She says Thomas Jefferson is her spirit guide and says she’s had 17 past lives, all as a man until now. She says as she gets older she’s starting to take on some of the characteristics of those “past lives” and will probably turn into a man in the spirit world. She claims she went to a medium and the medium told her, Thomas Jefferson (her guide) no longer looks like Thomas Jefferson. He’s now taken on the features of one of his past lives and looks like a man with dark hair dressed as a farmer. She often talks becoming more spiritual now etc so you make sure this is your last lifetime on earth. And that you want to go as high as you can to level 7. I used to listen to her podcast and read her books but she brings up reincarnation too much it just turns me off. Do you think that it’s possible that because she’s so spiritual that spirits have come into her mind and made her believe Thomas Jefferson is her guide and he has known her from previous lives? And there are many people in the spirit world who say no such thing as reincarnation happens and that spirits who still believe in that theory, send it back to earth..sorry for the long post but you are always my go-to for a lot of questions I have.
Hi Donovan,
Good to hear from you again.
The problems with Roberta Grimes’s beliefs, drawing as they do on mediums, spirit contacts, and “spirit guides,” are outlined not only in the above article, but more specifically in this article:
What about Spiritualism? Is it a Good Idea to Contact Spirits?
Short version: There are spirits in the world of spirits that will tell people whatever they want to hear. Some of them actually believe what they’re telling people on earth about reincarnation, past lives, and so on. They are drawn to people who are open to or share their beliefs, and will confirm those beliefs. Others are lying spirits who are intentionally deceiving people in order to gain power over their minds.
Either way, “information” gained from spirits simply isn’t reliable. It’s no more reliable than if someone on earth said it. The idea that if something comes from the spiritual world, it must be true, is simply wrong. In the spiritual world there are just as many misinformed people (because spirits are just people who have died and gone on to the spiritual world) as there are here on earth. It’s the same people that were here on earth, who have all of the conflicting opinions and beliefs that they had here on earth.
In earthly society, people who believe in reincarnation will find other people who believe in reincarnation, get together with them either online or in person, and strengthen each other’s belief. It’s exactly the same in the spiritual world. And it’s exactly the same between people on earth and people in the spiritual world. It doesn’t make reincarnation a reality any more than the fact that there are whole groupings of New Age people here on earth who believe in reincarnation makes reincarnation a reality.
That’s why it’s necessary to subject ideas and information that comes from the spiritual world to the same scrutiny to which we would (or at least should) subject ideas and information that comes from people and sources here on earth.
And as for scrutiny, Roberta Grimes’s belief that Thomas Jefferson is her spirit guide fits the profile of common past life and spirit guide claims: he’s a famous historical figure.
Mathematically speaking, humankind over the ages has consisted overwhelmingly of common people who lived out their lives in obscurity and never made it into the history books. Today, the ratio of common people to famous people is also overwhelmingly large. So the likelihood that a particular individual today would be the reincarnation of some famous person from the past, or have a famous person from the past as her or his spirit guide, is at least hundreds of millions to one.
Yet over and over again, reincarnationists claim that they are the reincarnation of some famous person in the past, or in this case, that their spirit guide is some famous person from the past. Hypatia is apparently an especially popular one.
That small, elite group of famous historical people must be very busy getting reincarnated as all sorts of people, over and over again!
So right off the bat, I’m highly skeptical. I suspect that Thomas Jefferson has no interest whatsoever in being Roberta Grimes’s spirit guide, and just wants to be left alone to live his life in peace.
Then there’s her belief that she’s been a man in the past, and she’s going to be a man in her next life. What’s with women wanting to be men? Is there something better about being a man, such that it would be a desirable thing for a woman? I have to wonder whether Grimes has a healthy self-respect for herself as a woman. Armchair psychologizing, I know, but it’s another red flag.
I could go on. But the short version is, Grimes’s beliefs have all of the hallmarks of being deceived by mistaken or lying spirits from the world of spirits—which is the intermediate area between heaven and hell where people first go, and live for a longer or shorter time, after they die. Spirits in the world of spirits usually continue to believe what they believed on earth, often for the equivalent of several decades, before moving on to their permanent home in either heaven or hell. If they go to hell, they continue to hold onto their false beliefs, and become the lying spirits that intentionally deceive people. If they go to heaven, they are taught by angels before going to their heavenly home, and are disabused of false beliefs that they had innocently held while on earth.
Meanwhile, please do read, or re-read, the article linked above, which gives a fuller version of why “information” from spirit contacts is not reliable. And if you have further thoughts or questions, please feel free to continue the conversation.
Interesting, thank you. Now she also co-authored a book from an alleged spirit name Mikey who claims he had a lifetime here in the 1600’s and now he’s way note advanced than before.The young man apparently died here @ 20 years old. The mother claims this is all true and she talks to him all the time. What about situations like those or people who say they visit the spirit world, like Swedenborg but say they have come in contact with their father who’s now a young boy on the other side?
Hi Donovan,
You’re welcome.
People are gonna believe what they’re gonna believe. And that’s true on the other side just as it is here.
About people who have had spiritual experiences, in general these are tailored to the particular person and his or her needs at this particular time in his or her life. Generalizing from such personal experiences to broader beliefs and principles is generally not a good idea.
As for people visiting the spiritual world “like Swedenborg,” I’m not aware of anyone besides Swedenborg who was fully awake and conscious in the spiritual world (not just hearing the voices of spirits) on a nearly daily basis for almost three decades. To my knowledge, no one else has visited the spiritual world “like Swedenborg.” For more on that, please see the section titled, “2. Swedenborg’s experience in the spiritual world was unique in known history” in the article:
Do the Teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg take Precedence over the Bible?
His name is jurgen ziewe. If you get a chance look him up and let me know what you think.
Which one was he?
Just saw this. What do you mean?
Hi Donovan,
I lost track of the conversation, and am wondering why you referred me to Jurgen Ziewe.
Oh! He’s the guy I mentioned who says he does astral travel. We were talking about reincarnation and I mentioned that guy said he saw his dad reincarnated on the other side. I just wanted your opinion on him saying that and his out of body travel if you knew who he was.
Hi Lee.
Curious if you’ve ever read the Padgett Messages. Padgett claims to have had communications with Swedenborg after Swedenborg’s passing.
Hi Dan,
Thanks for stopping by, and for your comment and question.
Yes, I have read the Padgett messages about “Swedenborg.” They are clearly from some deceptive spirit posing as Swedenborg. They don’t sound like him at all. And it strains credulity to think that a man (Swedenborg) who spent nearly three decades enjoying open access to the spiritual world, and who solemnly affirmed on his deathbed that everything he had written was true, would suddenly change his mind and deny it all when he went to the spiritual world permanently.
Personally, I’ll trust the man who has been there and traveled there extensively over the man who heard voices from unknown entities and uncritically believed everything they said.
Thanks for your response Lee. I just purchased Heaven and Hell and I am looking forward to reading it. I have not read anything from Swedenborg yet.
I have read the Padgett Messages. Do you believe Padgett is genuine? I haven’t yet concluded on that.
I have also read Roberta Grimes but not sure I believe those books.
I am shocked at the number of people out there who claim to be communicating with the other side. They cant possibly all be genuine, right?
I have a question regarding a comment you made about those who die young. Babies…maybe very young children. I believe you stated something about them getting a free pass to Heaven. How can this be? The rest of us have to go through life (some may have awful lives) and risk going to hell for eternity, but those who die young get a free pass into Heaven? Well if I had been given a choice then I would have signed up for the free pass. I mean, what’s the purpose of a life on Earth if the ultimate outcome could be an eternity in hell?
Hi Dan,
I think you’ll enjoy Heaven and Hell. The first few chapters are somewhat theoretical, and of course, the book was written in a different era, in a different language, so it can be challenging to read in places. However, it offers the best and most reliable information about the spiritual world available anywhere. To my knowledge, no one else in history even claimed to have had direct, full sensory experience of the spiritual world regularly for a period of almost thirty years. For more on why I think Swedenborg is worth listening to, please see:
Do the Teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg take Precedence over the Bible?
About Padgett, I do not think that spirit mediums are a good source of reliable information about the spiritual world. Since they just hear voices, they have no way of knowing or verifying who they are talking to on the other side. Even Swedenborg at first had a hard time sorting out historically known people from impersonators in the spiritual world. I think that most of the historical personages that spirit mediums think they’re hearing from are actually impersonators using the name of those personages to get people to give weight to and believe in what they’re saying. Once they get the confidence of the medium and the people consulting the medium, they can tell them anything they want, and it will be believed, because it came from the spiritual world. For more on this, please see:
What about Spiritualism? Is it a Good Idea to Contact Spirits?
Hi Dan,
Your question about children always going to heaven when they die vs. adults risking hell is a good one. Here are three points to consider:
On the first point, the idea put forth in the Bible and other sacred literature that people are forced down to hell when they’ve been bad is necessary for simple-minded people, to get them to pay attention to God and God’s commandments, and live a good life instead of an evil life. But the reality is that people make their own choice about whether to go to heaven or to hell by the kind of choices they make and the kind of life they live. In the afterlife, evil people are not forced into hell, but go there of their own free will because that is where they can indulge, as much as is possible, in their evil desires and behaviors.
On the second point, once again, in the Bible hell is referred to as a place of eternal torment because simple-minded people, and even many well-educated people, must have a fear of the consequences of wrong actions or they will go ahead and do all sorts of evil, immoral, and destructive things. And there is torment in hell. But it is torment that is a direct result of the evil spirits’ ongoing actions (not what they did on earth), and it is inflicted by evil spirits on each other, not by God or the angels, and not by some arch-devil named Satan. In general, people in hell are allowed to live as they please, including engaging in evil behavior, but they are not allowed to harm good spirits and angels, and their evil actions inevitably bring retribution and pain upon them by their fellow evil spirits. Still, they engage in their favorite evil behavior anyway, because that’s what they enjoy.
For some of the most horrendously evil people, the situation in hell is much worse than this. But getting to that level of evil takes serious effort. Most ordinary idiots, jerks, and a$$holes will live a fairly ordinary sordid existence in hell of fighting and attacking each other, robbing each other, and engaging in all sorts of stupid and insane behavior—and will feel the consequences of that stupid and insane behavior just as people who engage in such behavior here on earth do sooner or later. If you “party” hard, you get the hangover in the morning. And if you keep at it year after year, eventually your liver gives out. If you live a highly promiscuous life, sooner or later you’re going to get an STD, or you’re just plain gonna burn yourself out.
For more on these first two points, please see:
Is There Really a Hell? What is it Like?
On the third point, God designed us to live a full lifetime here on earth. Anything less than that is less desirable. Yes, babies, children, and even teenagers before the age of emancipation and self-responsibility will all go to heaven, not hell, after they die. The price of this is that they are not able to go through their full development as a human being here on earth, and they are therefore limited in the tasks they can perform in the spiritual world. It’s a bit like being born prematurely, which causes some organs not to have fully developed, and not to have their full functioning power during the person’s lifetime, so that the person is somewhat limited in the level of exertion they can put out.
Mind you, babies, children, and teens who die before they reach adulthood do have a very good and happy life in heaven. Babies, in particular, reside in the highest heavens, the heavens of love, because they had not yet lost their innocence here on earth. But they are not among the most powerful angels for doing good, because they are more delicate in character than people who went through a full lifetime here on earth, and who journeyed through their lifetime from the innocence of unawareness and ignorance that we have in infancy to the innocence of experience and wisdom that we can attain in old age. That innocence of wisdom is far more powerful than the innocence of infancy. Those who attain it become some of the wisest and most powerful angels in heaven. Other angels look to them for help and guidance. And they, of course, look directly to the Lord.
In short, the situation of minor children who die always going to heaven is God bringing the best outcome out of a less than ideal circumstance. A God of love and mercy would not allow anyone to go to hell who didn’t freely choose it as a self-responsible adult. Still, it would be better for every person to live out a full lifetime here on earth, and to have the opportunity to fully develop as a human being. Our life in heaven is lived on the foundation we built here on earth.
I hope this helps.
Lee, thanks so much for your thorough response. I really appreciate it. I think what you said makes sense. It did, however, bring up another thought in my head. What about those who are born into unfortunate circumstances (maybe abusive parents or extreme poverty)? Or what about those who have a significant event happen that changes their life forever (maybe a severe reaction to a pharmaceutical that results in a permanent disability, or an unfortunate lawsuit that wipes out their life savings, etc.)?
I don’t think it would be unexpected or unreasonable for these people to have a lot of anger, maybe at God, or maybe just become extremely negative, depressed people, all because of some unfortunate event or being born into a crappy situation.
If how we live our life determines where we choose to spend eternity, it hardly seems fair that these people had to go through traumatic events that shaped how they feel about life, God, etc. whereas someone else may have a very easy life where they are good looking, rich, etc.
Our environment helps to shape our thinking. Someone with a rough life is undoubtedly going to feel differently about God, spiritually, etc. and will likely be less desirable to be around than others who have led a fortunate life.
Thoughts?
Hi Dan,
You’re very welcome. Glad to help.
Your question about people in unfortunate circumstances, or who have serious setbacks in life, is also a good one. The general principle is that no one is penalized spiritually, and specifically, no one goes to hell, due to circumstances beyond their control. We are only held responsible for choices we make among the reasonable options available to us in our particular circumstances.
Of course, the circumstances of our birth, and unfortunate events that happen in our lives, do affect our character and personality. As Swedenborg says, every moment of our life has consequences to eternity. How we grew up and the things that happen to us will make us into a different person than we might have been if we had been born in a different time or place, or if different things had happened to us.
However, the primary determinant of our eternal fate is what Swedenborg calls our “ruling love,” which is what we choose to put first in our goals and in our life. And that is something we choose as self-responsible adults. If we choose to put God and/or the good of our fellow human beings first in our priorities, then we have chosen a life of heaven, no matter how humble or difficult our external circumstances may be. If we choose to put material wealth and pleasure, and our own reputation and personal power, first, then we have chosen a life of hell, even if we may be fabulously wealthy and live in a seaside mansion.
In the afterlife, our life will not be determined by our material circumstances here on earth, but by what’s in our heart, according to the choices we have made within our particular circumstances. Even people living in a poverty-stricken slum can choose to do what they can to bring some cheer to their neighborhood, and to ease the burden of the people around them in whatever small ways they can. In the afterlife, such people will find themselves living in comfortable or even splendid circumstances. All of their needs will be met. There will be no more hunger or crime to deal with. In their joy at living in the light and warmth of heaven, they will forget all about their struggles on earth. Meanwhile, born-wealthy people who lived in seaside mansions, but did not care about or take care of their fellow human beings, will find themselves living in a hovel amid squalor and hunger. (But rich people who use their wealth to help their fellow human beings out of genuine concern for them will make their final home in heaven, not in hell.)
Here are a couple of articles that touch on some of these subjects further:
Hi Dan,
Here is one more article that you might find helpful on your question:
Will Sick or Disabled People Return to Good Health in the Spiritual World?
Thanks Lee! Again a very nice thorough response…much appreciated!
I may reach out again when I get deep into Swedenborg’s book. I’m sure I’ll learn a lot and I’m looking forward to it. Thanks again for your guidance.
Why is there so much more proof of reincarnation then an eternal afterlife? (Or at least more info that supports reincarnation then an eternal afterlife.)
And if it exists, what is heaven really like?
Hi Luna,
I wouldn’t say there is more proof of reincarnation than of an eternal afterlife. Rather, there are many people who have had experiences that they interpret to support reincarnation. But as the above article suggests, there is a much better explanation for all of that “evidence of reincarnation”: “past life regression” is really having the memories of some other person infused into one’s mind, and then incorrectly assuming it to be one’s own past life.
About what heaven is really like, please see:
Who Are the Angels and How Do They Live?
Even better, get yourself a copy of Swedenborg’s book Heaven and Hell:
Heaven and Hell, by Emanuel Swedenborg
Hello, Lee
You place a lot of trust and belief on Heaven and Hell by Emanuel Swedenborg, but how can we know what he wrote is what he actually experienced? How can we know he didn’t just make it up?
And also, on the topic of reincarnation, if the Eastern religions were talking about spiritual rebirth, then why do both Hindus believe that our karma in this life, sets our life course in the next one? And why do Buddhists believe that all levels of heaven and hell are only temporary and once you run out of good/bad karma, you return to Earth?
I don’t mean in anyway to try and challenge your views, but right now I feels as if I am caught in between all this afterlife business and I guess, I am trying to find a way I can truly believe in the beautiful afterlife you have described.
Hi Luna,
Yes, I understand. These are heart-pressing issues, and you don’t want to be deceived. In the end, you’ll have to make up your own mind, based on what your head and your heart tell you is the truth.
Of course, many people have accused Swedenborg of making it all up, or of being deceived about the true nature of his spiritual experiences. I am reading a biography of Swedenborg right now written by a non-Swedenborgian who thinks that his spiritual experiences were all just creations of his subconscious mind, and that he never actually went to the spiritual world.
Why do I believe Swedenborg rather than that skeptical and rather materialistic biographer? For two basic reasons:
On the first point, given the nature of his spiritual writings, and his claims to have visited the spiritual world regularly for a period of almost thirty years, it is natural that many people would think he was insane. There were even rumors circulated not long after his death that he had episodes of insanity in which he did crazy things. But those rumors were thoroughly investigated and found to have been complete fabrications made up by his theological enemies.
Meanwhile, he continued to take his seat in the Swedish House of Nobles whenever he was in Sweden, and continued to submit memoranda on various the social and political issues of the day. He had a special interest in economic issues and in maintaining a sound currency for the health of the Swedish economy. Everyone who knew him testified that he was of sound mind and unfailingly polite and gracious in company.
When he was on his deathbed, when the Rev. Arvid Ferelius, the Swedish Lutheran pastor in London, where Swedenborg was staying at the time, came to give him final communion, this exchange took place between them:
On the second point, all of this would mean nothing if the things he wrote were irrational and senseless. And in some cases he does say things that I don’t agree with. But in the main, his writings and his teaching are highly sensible, and they so beautifully and powerfully explain so many things that are otherwise dark and obscure that I have come to give them a great deal of credibility. Still, I withhold judgment on any particular parts that do not make complete sense to me when I read them. We must keep our thinking mind active and engaged when reading and evaluating anything, no matter who wrote it. Swedenborg himself spoke strongly against blind faith, and advised not believing anything unless we see and understand that it is true.
For that, you will have to read his writings yourself. And since many of your questions are about the afterlife, Heaven and Hell is the book for you. It is far and away his most popular book. In fact, it is one of the most popular books about the afterlife of all time. It has had a major influence on how people think about angels and the afterlife, even though most people have never heard of Swedenborg. See, for example, “What is the Source of the Belief that the Deceased become Angels?” Heaven and Hell has been translated into dozens of languages, and gone through hundreds of editions. Please do get yourself a copy. As you read it, consider in your mind whether these things make sense to your thinking mind, and satisfy your heart at the same time. Then you will have your answer.
Meanwhile, please also read this article, if you haven’t already:
Do the Teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg take Precedence over the Bible?
Hi Luna,
About reincarnation in Hindu and Buddhist thought, in addition to what I said before about “reincarnation” in Eastern spiritual writings really being about spiritual rebirth, not about being physically born again in a new body, I also think that the popular idea of individuals reincarnating is a corruption, or a physical-minded interpretation, of the original idea of God continually incarnating in new souls of new human beings. The late Wilson Van Dusen, a Swedenborgian and a clinical psychologist, spoke about this in an article titled “Reincarnation: The Universal Return,” which was published in 1992 in the small book The Country of Spirit: Selected Writings. (The link is to its page on Amazon. But it’s out of print, so it may not always be available there.)
As is common in Van Dusen’s writing, the article is a brain-bender. But basically, he says that in Eastern religion there is a “greater doctrine” and a “lesser doctrine” of reincarnation. The lesser doctrine is the common, popular idea that individuals are reincarnated in new bodies. The greater doctrine is the idea that God is continually “re-incarnated” in new human beings. Van Dusen states that the “lesser doctrine” is not really true, and that this is known by some Buddhist and Hindu masters with which he has been in communication.
Parts of that chapter are quoted in an article called “Is There Reincarnation?” at the now inactive website egogahan.com.
It is similar to the situation in Christianity, in which there is a popular, but largely false “Christianity” that people flock to in droves; but there is also a deeper, more spiritual version of Christianity that most people know little or nothing about because it’s not what is preached from the pulpits of the megachurches, or even from the pulpits of the rural country churches.
If Emanuel Swedenborg was such an intelligent man, wouldn’t it make it easier to make up such things? He would just need a foolproof plan.
Also, is there any other evidence of the afterlife besides NDEs (which some scientists believes is just a loss of a chemical in a person’s brain when they are dying) and books (which could be made up)?
Sorry if I sound rude. However, as you stated yourself, I do not want to be deceived, especially with such pressing matters.
To be honest with you, the only reason why I got into this afterlife business in the first place is because I am worried that once my parents pass, I’ll never see them alive again. I think the idea of an afterlife is giving me hope that maybe one day, I may be able to see them again, and be able to see them for the rest of eternity.
Hi Luna,
Well . . . Swedenborg would have had to be a first-class liar to have made it all up, write over thirty volumes of it, and then solemnly affirm on his deathbed that it was all true. And given the spiritual quality of his writings, I just don’t find that it believable that the whole thing was one big lie. Once again, I recommend that you get a copy of Heaven and Hell and read it for yourself. Then you can make up your own mind.
About your parents passing, even though it hasn’t happened yet, this article might be helpful to you:
What Does it Mean When My Parents Die? Will I See Them Again?
However, what if god isn’t just? What if we really aren’t as human as we thought? Is possible that god is unjust? I mean personally I believe it’s cruel to rip friends and families apart life after life, stick them back together with some swapped roles or separate them forever, etc, but is it possible god is unjust and doesn’t really give us real freedom, or is there just too much evidence going against that ideology?
Hi Luna,
Well . . . if God is unjust and cruel, then we’re pretty much screwed, aren’t we? We’re ants under the boot of God.
But I don’t believe God is like that. A cruel and unjust God would not, and could not, create such a stupendously amazing and beautiful universe. Nor would a cruel and unjust God give us so many spiritual writings and revelations in which we can seek and find deep and satisfying answers to the toughest questions of life.
You, of course, will have to make up your own mind what you believe about this.
Is there any proof in ancient writings besides the Bible that proves God is just?
Thanks,
Luna
Hi Luna,
The Bible is the best ancient source. But yes, there are others, such as the sacred writings of Hinduism. And once again, “proof” is a slippery concept. It all depends upon what evidence you are willing to accept.
Why do you believe the Bible is the best ancient source? Does it take precedence over any other ancient writings?
And how can we be sure that we just need to have good hearts and that we can be forgiven for anything we do as long as we truly realize we have wronged? For example, the Ancient Egyptians believed that you had to have an almost perfect heart because if it was heavier than one feather of the god/goddess of justice, then your soul would be eaten. How do we know that there is an eternal afterlife as long as you are good and not that you will get your soul eaten if you aren’t almost perfect?
Also, why do some Christians day that although believers of other religions don’t go to hell, God will make their souls disappear as a last act of mercy? Is this true?
Hi Luna,
To answer your last question first, no soul that God makes ever ceases to exist, including the souls of people who choose evil over good. The Bible says that they will go to eternal fire (Matthew 25:41), and that “the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire that burns them will not be quenched” (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:47–48). The worms and fire are figurative, not literal. But the clear message is that this is an eternal state for those who choose evil and hell over good and heaven.
The Bible is the best ancient source because, objectively, it moves from polytheism to monotheism, whereas just about every other ancient spiritual writing that still exists remains polytheistic throughout. Polytheism represents a lower, earthly spiritual state, whereas monotheism carries us to a higher, spiritually oriented spiritual state.
Further based on Christian belief, the Bible is the Word of God, whereas other ancient spiritual writings may reveal something of God and spirit, but they are not the Word of God in the same sense that the Bible is. For more on what makes the Word of God be the Word of God, please see:
Why Isn’t Paul in Swedenborg’s Canon?
As for God requiring us to be perfect, and our heart to be perfect, that would be unreasonable and unjust. Only God is capable of being perfect. We humans can be good, but we can’t be perfect. A just God would not require us to be something that we are incapable of being.
This points out one reason the Bible is a better source than other ancient writings. Other ancient writings present gods who are fickle, changeable, vain, capricious . . . in other words, who are basically super-powerful super-humans who have all of the failings of ordinary mortals. Those gods hold the fate of human beings in their hand. Humans are merely fodder for their divine whims. Fortune and fate were believed to control human affairs. Humans themselves had little or no control over their own destiny.
The Bible does indeed have some of these themes. But if we take the Bible as a whole, and consider the picture of God that it paints, it is an entirely different picture than that of other ancient and polytheistic writings. The God of the Bible puts our fate in our own hands, and gives the choice and control of our own life over to us. Yes, we are affected by the “slings and arrows of outrageous fortune” (Shakespeare). But ultimately, our destiny is what we make it. See, for example, Ezekiel 18, and my article about it here.
This is a generalization, of course. Some other ancient writings are quite good. But in general, the Bible stands head and shoulders above the others in its presentation of the nature of God and of our spiritual life.
Once again, you will have to make up your own mind about these things. But I believe that the God of the Bible is a far greater, more loving, and more just God than the gods of most other ancient writings and philosophies.
Also, if reincarnation is real, why do some people have the following experiences:
– Birth Marks from deceased family members (In parts of Asia there is a ceremony of marking a deceased person with soot and some babies are born with that exact same mark in the exact same spot.)
– Some Babies have the exact same handwriting as a deceased family member.
– Born knowing a language a deceased family member could speak but the child could not have possibly learned it where he lived/his environment.
-Being born with a mark shaped like a wound in the exact same place as a family member had had a scar, whether it’d be from a bullet, surgery, etc.
-While going through a past-life regression, the person speaks a lot about the doctor’s personal life (who is still alive).
Is there evidence that these experiences could have happened while still supporting the idea of an eternal heaven and hell? If so, what is that evidence?
Hi Luna,
The birthmark thing never made sense to me as evidence of reincarnation. It is just as likely to have had physical and genetic causes as spiritual causes. It is an example of people seeing what they want to see, and interpreting things according to their own pre-existing views.
Most of these cases, however, are probably just coincidences. But because they are unusual, people pay a lot of attention to them, and they get a lot of “press,” so to speak. People talk about the one baby born with a birthmark that matches the birthmark of some other family member, but they don’t talk about the thousands of babies born without such birthmarks.
All of the other “evidences” of reincarnation are easily explained by the sharing of memories in the spiritual world, and between spirits and people on earth.
In short, there really is no sound evidence for reincarnation that isn’t equally consistent with current science and with Swedenborg’s description of how the spiritual world, and its communication with people in the material world, works.
However, the birthmark couldn’t really have been genetic because the family member was marked with soot, so how could the baby have gotten that same marking in the same place but instead as a birthmark?
Hi Luna,
I don’t know. But it makes no sense to me that it would be because of reincarnation. It’s probably more a legend than a real occurrence anyway.
People say it represents reincarnation because they believe the deceased person reincarnated into the baby. It isn’t a legend because there are actual photos. How could this be possible while still supporting the idea of an eternal heaven and hell?
Hi Luna,
Once again, I suspect that the “actual photos” are of the one baby in ten thousand that had these “signs.” I.e., that it is a coincidence. And people pay attention to strange coincidences, not to ordinary everyday things. People give great weight to the rare exceptions while not paying attention to the vast bulk of occurrences (in this case, babies without strange birthmarks) that don’t support their theories.
But even if there is spiritual influence in the birthmarks, that doesn’t necessarily mean that it was caused by reincarnation.
In the usual theory of reincarnation, a soul departs from one physical body and later enters another physical body. This means that if birthmarks were caused by reincarnating souls, it must mean that the souls are influencing the physical structure and appearance of the bodies they enter. I have no particular problem with that, except that we know there is already a mechanism for traits to be passed down from parents to their offspring. It’s called heredity. And if there is physical heredity, then it would make sense that there is spiritual heredity as well. In other words, if the birthmarks are believed to be inherited from parents and grandparents, then there is an ordinary mechanism that doesn’t require reincarnation to pass on those birthmarks: heredity.
Further, reincarnation theory doesn’t generally specify that souls will pass on to the progeny of those they inhabit—i.e., the souls of grandparents passing into their grandchildren. So reincarnation theory doesn’t provide a good explanation of why such birthmarks would be passed down the generations in the same family. Heredity provides a much better explanation.
What about the supposed occurrence of marks placed on an ancestor being passed on to their descendants? Reincarnation theory doesn’t provide a particularly good explanation for this, either. Why would a mark on a body be passed on by a soul? Once again, it is only the souls that pass from one body to the next. The body itself is left behind.
However, if there is some sort of spiritual influence that causes a mark placed on one body being passed down as a birthmark, this, also, does not require reincarnation, nor is reincarnation a particularly good explanation of it.
Spiritual forces are commonly transmitted via the “aura” around people’s spirits, and the influence of that aura in the spiritual atmosphere. Spiritual auras surround individual human spirits, but are even stronger when there is a whole group of spirits creating a similar aura, or “spiritual force field.”
Even if we did accept that these occurrences of sooty marks manifesting birthmarks are real examples of spiritual forces acting, and not just the one coincidence in 10,000 births, the influence would likely flow from the spiritual atmosphere of the family and friends who believe that placing a mark on one person will cause it to manifest in another person. To put it plainly, if the soul of the baby caused there to be a birthmark on its body, it is most likely that it is caused by the the influence on the baby’s soul of the mind and spirit of all the people surrounding the birth who believe that a birthmark will manifest in the baby.
Once again, I doubt this is what happens. I think it is most likely coincidence and folklore. But if something is happening beyond ordinary genetic passage of traits, it is more likely caused by this sort of group spiritual influence than by the soul of a grandfather or grandmother being reincarnated into the body of a grandson or granddaughter.
I don’t think it was a coincidence because this was seen on 43 babies. What about the work of Ian Stevenson, who devoted his whole life to proving reincarnation exists? (You can search him up if you’d like.)
Also, if it were true that past life experiences were other people’s experience, why do these spirits target children?
Lastly, the wounds that appeared as a birthmark on the children were the exact same wounds that the person the children remembers as his past life had. Why does this happen if reincarnation doesn’t exist?
Hi Luna,
Considering that about 360,000 babies are born every day, and 140,000,000 per year, 43 babies is statistically insignificant, and would count as a coincidence.
Children in general are more open to spiritual influences and experiences than adults. It’s not that spirits target them, but that they are more likely to be aware of the presence of the spirits that surround all of us all the time in the spiritual world.
And spirits are quite capable of connecting a living person with the memories of a dead person who had some similar characteristics mentally or physically. They’re still the memories of another person who is no longer living in the physical world, not the memories of the same person in a past life.
And yes, some people devote their lives to proving that reincarnation is real. Some people also devote their lives to proving that the earth is flat.
Why do some people have NDEs where they have life reviews but also see everything their soul did in past lives, and how there is a recurring theme in all their lifetimes that leads to how they are always given the choose I get to choose good over evil? Is this proof of reincarnation?
Hi Luna,
Probably because God and the angels use people’s existing beliefs to lead them toward living a good life. If a person believes in reincarnation, that may mean using that belief in an NDE to get them to keep working on their spiritual life and development. Later on, after they die, if their belief in reincarnation had prompted them to become a good and loving person, the angels can correct that wrong belief of theirs, but they still keep their good heart, and that carries them to heaven.
However, in the example I’m talking about, this person was not religious at all and never believed in the afterlife, so why would God give her an NDE to make her believe in past lives and stuff like that?
Hi Luna,
Even people who aren’t religious hear things and pick up ideas. I can’t say why it went toward reincarnation in this particular case. Perhaps she had a bad taste in her mouth about Christianity (so many “Christian” beliefs these days are anything but Christian!), so her mind went to Eastern beliefs instead.
But why would God want to deceive her like that if reincarnation doesn’t exist?
Hi Luna,
God and the angels have to talk to us based on ideas that are already in our minds. They don’t pour brand new ideas into us. And what’s in our mind doesn’t necessarily come from God and the angels. They aren’t lying to us, they’re just talking to us based on what we already think, and what we already think about. And they use those thoughts in our mind to lead us to live a good life of love and service to other people.
In the afterlife, we are not judged by our beliefs, but by what kind of life we lived, and what kind of person we became, based on our beliefs. Believing something that’s not true, such as reincarnation, won’t cause us to go to hell. Only living a bad life from a bad heart will.
In the afterlife, angels will teach us what is really true, and what’s not. But if we have a bad heart, and live a selfish and greedy life from that bad heart, we won’t listen to them, and will keep believing falsehoods because we love the falsehoods that justify and excuse our wrong behavior. But people who live a good life from a good heart will easily give up their wrong ideas when they hear the truth, and see it in the clear light of heaven.
This is why God and the angels don’t try to correct all of our wrong beliefs while we are living here on earth. Instead, they focus on guiding us to live a good life based on whatever beliefs we do have, whether they are right or wrong.
However the woman I am talking about never had any pre existing ideas. She stated this herself in an interview about her NDE. She never thought about reincarnation and past lives until she got this life review of everything her soul experiences including experiences in her “past lives”.
Hi Luna,
You mean her mind was completely blank? She had never ever heard of reincarnation? She didn’t even know that such an idea existed?
I believe so.
Since her Mind was blank, why did God plant the idea of reincarnation in her head?
Hi Luna,
I don’t believe that her mind was blank. That was a rhetorical question. No one’s mind is blank. Whatever was in her mind, it was drawn out, and it was susceptible to a belief in reincarnation.
Could you review these two articles about reincarnation and give your opinion? I am terrified of reincarnation and I guess I’m just looking for some solid evidence that it doesn’t exist.
https://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/research/ian-stevenson.html
And
https://lonerwolf.com/past-lives-soul-reincarnated/
Also, you stated that reincarnation would not exist because it’s unnecessary, but how can we be sure that just because it’s unnecessary means it doesn’t exist? I mean there are a bunch of unnecessary things on Earth but they still exist.
Hi Luna,
The Ian Stevenson article seems to focus mostly on birthmarks as evidence of reincarnation. I’ve already explained why I don’t find that sort of “evidence” convincing.
The “11 signs your soul has reincarnated many times” in the lonerwolf article can all be explained just as easily, if not more easily, by the belief that there are angels and spirits around us all the time, all of whom were once themselves human beins on this earth.
Once again, you’ll have to make up your own mind whether or not to believe in reincarnation. In my view, it is a materialistic and literalistic belief, and not at all spiritual. In the ancient scriptures rebirth, or being born again, is talking about spiritual rebirth, not physical rebirth. Believing it’s about physical rebirth is a physical-minded belief.
You say that past live memories are just of spirits inhabiting a persons mind, but why do some people have the past life memories of someone for decades?
Here are three examples:
https://thefreedomarticles.com/evidence-proof-reincarnation/
I really hope this is false and hope you can refute these cases of “reincarnation”
Hi Luna,
It’s not spirits inhabiting a person’s mind. It’s memories of a spirit being infused into a person’s mind. That can happen over any length of time. And the memories stay in the person’s mind just as if they had experienced it themselves, even though they are actually someone else’s memories.
What about the idea that reincarnation is a choice, and you can choose to reincarnate?
Also, could you respond to this post on Quora about reincarnation?
https://www.quora.com/Im-not-scared-of-death-but-I-am-scared-of-reincarnation-Has-reincarnation-ever-been-proved-or-is-it-just-some-myth
(Read the Jeff Corken response)
I am so terrified of reincarnation that it gives me anxiety attacks and it makes me cry on end for multiple hours.
Hi Luna,
If reincarnation terrifies people, that should be enough to show that it is incompatible with a loving God. The god of reincarnation is a disengaged, uncaring god.
As for Jeff Corken’s answer, he quickly lost me with all of his rabbit holes, so I’ll just focus on his two initial statements. The second one first:
Reincarnation will not soon be proven in the laboratory. Laboratories, and science in general, are for studying physical phenomena. The soul is not a physical entity. Therefore it is outside the purview of science. In plain language, science can study the human body, but it cannot study the human soul. Corken clearly does not understand the nature of the soul, nor does he understand the nature of science, or he could not make such an unscientific and ill-informed statement.
And his first statement:
For the universe to be stable, it is not necessary for all sentients to be eternal beings. It is only necessary for one sentient to be an eternal being. That sentient being is God. If God were unstable, and not eternal, then the universe would be unstable. But because God is stable, the universe is a also stable. That’s because the universe is continually held in existence by God’s continual presence and inflow into it. On this, too, Corken simply doesn’t understand the nature of reality.
Perhaps it would be better for you to focus more on the next answer, the one by Geoff Cutler, and get his book. I haven’t read it, and I don’t know how good it is. But it’s got to be better than Corken’s rather odd, disjointed, and ill-founded assertions.
As for reincarnation fitting in with the cycles of nature, and so on, it really doesn’t.
Nature is renewed, not by continually recycling and recreating the same animals over and over again, but by continually creating new animals. These new animals are not simply repeats of previous animals. Rather, in the case of mammals, including the human mammal, each one is built around DNA that is a unique combination of unique offshoots from both the male and the female parent. In other words, each animal is a new and unique being that has never existed before.
Reincarnation, however, states that every human (and animal) soul is simply the recycling of an old one. That goes against the way nature works, which is to continually create new individuals, not just to recycle old ones over and over again. This is how the process of evolution is able to move forward. If it were just a process of continually recycling old individuals, there would be no progress, because nothing would ever change.
This physical reality of the continual creation of new individuals, which we can indeed see and study through science, suggests that the generation of new human beings spiritually follows a similar pattern.
A new human being actually is a new human being who has a unique core character that has never existed before. That core character is generated from a unique combination of unique spiritual offshoots (“spiritual DNA”) from the person’s mother and father. This not only violates the reincarnationist idea that there are no new souls, and thus no new individuals. It also derives our soul from two previous souls, not just one, as in reincarnation.
In harmony with this pattern, both physically and spiritually we humans are built around a new combination of unique offshoots from our mother and father. We are not mere re-embodiments of previously existing souls.
This view of how human souls are created accords with and corresponds to how God has created the biology and ecosystem of the earth. Reincarnation flies in the face of everything we know from science about how life and reproduction works as created by God.
In short, science and the laboratory do not support reincarnation, and they never will. Rather, they support the view that each new human being is a brand new, unique soul that has never existed before.
But what if God really is unloving?
And also what do you believe about the doctrine of how reincarnation is just and an eternal heaven and hell is not because through reincarnation, you can advance spiritually much faster on Earth, but in an eternal heaven and hell, if you screw up then you land yourself in eternal hell?
Hi Luna,
If God really is unloving, then as they say, “Life sucks and then you die.” But looking out at this amazing earth and universe that God has created, I do not believe that God is unloving. Also, if God is unloving, then where does the love in our hearts come from?
And about hell, it’s not a matter of screwing up. No one goes to hell by mistake. People go to hell only if they choose evil over good over and over again, when they were given plenty of chances to choose good instead of evil, and were perfectly capable of doing so. Also, nobody goes to hell because they had bad parents or bad social influences. People go to hell only if, within the circumstances in which they live, they regularly and persistently choose to do what they know is wrong instead of doing what they know is right, because they enjoy doing what is wrong, and the want to do what is wrong. For a related article, please see:
Can Gang Members Go to Heaven? (Is Life Fair?)
Also, if we choose heaven, we don’t stop learning and growing. In fact, we can learn much faster in heaven than we can here on earth. And we do keep growing as a person forever. There is no need to go back to earth and start over in another body in order to continue learning and growing spiritually. Doing so would be like going back into the darkness of our mother’s womb after having lived in the light of the outside world. The light in heaven is so much brighter, and the knowledge, understanding, and wisdom there is so much greater, that going back to earth would massively slow down our spiritual development.
Hi Luna,
I don’t believe reincarnation happens, so I don’t believe we can choose to reincarnate.
But the human family tree is not ideal.
The genetic distribution is not ideal.
Many genes that existed before the flood are extinct and don’t carry forward to the current human population.
People don’t make the ideal choices of who to marry.
Why doesn’t God rearrange the human family tree? Kind of like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-balancing_binary_search_tree except God wouldn’t make the human tree balanced like that and the human family tree certainly wouldn’t be binary. There would be more than two children in each family. And not all families would have the same number of children.
Why doesn’t God rearrange the human family tree like that? There’s no overhead of course, because God is all powerful.
Hi WorldQuestioneer,
I’m not sure what you’re responding to here. Why would God want to rearrange the human family tree? What problem would that solve?
Hi Lee.
Out of curious, I typed it in the spirit world on duckduckgo, and found out that belief is more common than I thought. Most religions that believe in the spirit world seem to believe in reincarnation. There are some interesting claims such as children claiming they chose their parents, or recalling a different life and allegedly knowing facts about family members (the implication that sometimes family members reincarnate within in the same family, or knowing a different language. What’s your take on all that?
Hi Ray,
The basics on this are covered in these three sections of the above article:
Short version: When people “remember past lives,” what is actually happening is that the memory of some person who had previously lived on this earth is transferred into the memory of someone else who is still living on this earth, causing people to “remember” something that they themselves never actually experienced. These are someone else’s memories and experiences.
Since family members commonly remain associated with one another for a while even after some of them have died, it would not be surprising if for some people these “memories of past lives” were from deceased relatives. Ditto for knowing facts about family members, whether dead or alive. Individual and family memories remain available in the afterlife. They can be called to mind there just as they can here. This means that they would be available to infuse into the mind of someone who is still living on earth, so that she or he will “remember” being someone else in the family, or know family secrets that would not normally be accessible to them.
Also, young children commonly have easier access to the spiritual world in their minds because they have not yet become focused exclusively on this world, as usually happens when we become older children, teenagers, and adults. From a secular perspective, young children have a “vivid imagination.” But what’s really happening is that they have a closer connection to influences from the spiritual world.
At the same time, young children do not have any well-developed intellectual framework for their thinking. If life experience from a deceased family member were to flow into their mind, they would naturally assume it was their own experience and memory, even more so than adults who at least have the idea of “deja vu” to draw on.
Once again, it is not surprising that a few young children would speak in a way that would seem to support reincarnation. People who believe in reincarnation will file these occurrences away as proof of reincarnation. But really, it is evidence that children have a closer connection with the spiritual world than adults do.
About most religions believing in reincarnation, that is true of Eastern religions, but not so much of Christianity and Western religions in general. And as covered in the above article, even in Hinduism and Buddhism, the original and genuine meaning of “reincarnation” in their scriptures is spiritual rebirth, not souls taking on a new physical body. People who read those scriptures literally get mistaken ideas just as Christians who read the Bible literally get mistaken ideas.
I guess stuff that Ian Stevenson (and possibly others) reported, like “spontaneous memory recall” and other “signs of reincarnation” like “announcement dreams” to pregnant women or birthmarks – could be spiritual phenomenon related to spirits already passed on?
(assuming such things are reported without fraud)
Also, and this may sound crazy, but where did the idea floating around that evil entities make this world a soul trap come from? Or that the cube or Saturn represent or are related to imprisonment? Where did such ideas come from? Gnosticism?
(https://farsight.org/FarsightPress/Escape_main_page.html)
PS: There’s a claim that 3 people independently confirmed this odd idea that the tunnel in NDEs is a “soul trap” to reincarnation via “remote viewing”.
Hi K,
Yes, these phenomena are mostly artifacts of contact with spirits of deceased people, as explained in the above article.
And . . . where do any crazy ideas come from? Usually there’s some germ of truth underneath it all, which then gets twisted and distorted and conflated into all sorts of crazy, misshapen ideas that the human mind invents. Mostly, these crazy ideas come from evil, or at least confused, spirits whose minds are flitting about in various directions that are anything but in the direction of the actual truth, which is God.
If a medium calls the spirit of someone’s dead grandpa, and the spirit of their “dead grandpa” comes, that spirit that returns is probably not really their dead grandpa. It’s probably a demon masquerading as such. That’s why I put “dead grandpa” in quotes.
Hi WorldQuestioner,
It may or may not be the person’s deceased relative on the other side. This is more complicated than just saying, “It’s all demons,” as the fundamentalist Christians do. Not that I recommend using the services of spirit mediums. See:
What about Spiritualism? Is it a Good Idea to Contact Spirits?
Hi WorldQuestioner,
I should add that the reason fundamentalist Christians believe spirit contact is contact with demons is that they believe that the Resurrection hasn’t happened yet, and that all the people who have died are “sleeping,” and thus cannot be contacted. This despite the fact that Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be in Paradise that very day.
He didn’t say that the thief on the cross would be in Paradise (parádeisos) for eternity.
Hi WorldQuestioner,
That’s a separate issue. The point here is that he said that the thief would be in paradise with him that day. This would not be possible if everyone has to wait for a future resurrection before entering the afterlife.
You’ve read Deuteronomy 18:9-13, haven’t you?
When a medium contacts the dead, the spirits we talk to aren’t what we think we are talking to.
Hi WorldQuestioner,
That’s what this article is all about:
What about Spiritualism? Is it a Good Idea to Contact Spirits?
here is another example with a lot of supposed evidence for the Gnostic worldview that this world is an illusion designed to trap souls in reincarnation to feed off them:
trickedbythelight.com
Hi K,
Looks like there is a lot of material there. Was there anything in particular you wanted me to respond to?
I guess the main question is: there seems to be a lot of evidence for that Gnostic worldview from from multiple sources, from a spiritual perspective. Firsthand reports, references in media, signs in politics, etc.
(Meanwhile the spiritual evidence for the New Church view seems to still come from only one guy, in the 18th century.)
(PS: the new commenting system was a little confusing at first because those buttons are greyed out)
Hi K,
What Gnostic worldview specifically, and what evidence?
Hi K,
As for spiritual evidence for the New Church view of the afterlife specifically, there is now a tremendous amount from thousands, if not millions of near-death experiencers who largely corroborate Swedenborg’s descriptions of the spiritual world. Of course, not all of them agree with Swedenborg’s views. But their descriptions of the afterlife are strikingly similar to what Swedenborg described in far more detail several centuries ago.
About the commenting system, I was not aware that it had been changed. This website uses WordPress hosting, which means that although I do have quite a few options as to how the website appears, I don’t control everything about its look and feel and functioning.
There seems to be numerous spiritual evidence listed on that site this universe is an illusion created to feed on suffering by “demiurge” (lesser evil god), that the true God is in a non-physical realm beyond, and that there’s a system set up to trap souls (from the true God) with that light at the end of the tunnel to “recycle” or “reincarnate” them (in order to prolong suffering).
While you claim that NDEs are similar to what Swedenborg saw, people who run that site and others who hold a Gnostic view claim that elements of reported NDEs (as well as OBEs and “remote viewing”) support that “the light” is a “soul trap” to deceive people into reincarnating, and that this world is a prison.
Supposed evidence for such a grim worldview is also drawn from elements of religion, mythology, and even linguistics. Such a view is even said to be reflected in pop culture: sometimes even explicitly so, such as the following lines from the end of the episode of “Coda” from Star Trek: Voyager.
[
ALIEN: This is what my species does. At the moment just before death one of us comes down to help you understand what’s happening, to make the crossing over an occasion of joy.
JANEWAY: And what is that? (pointing to the light behind him)
ALIEN: Our Matrix, where your consciousness will live. I was being truthful when I said it was a place of wonder. It can be whatever you want it to be.
JANEWAY: Then why didn’t you tell me this from the beginning? Why pretend to be my father.
ALIEN: Usually people are comforted to see their loved ones. It makes the crossing over a much less fearful occasion. I’ve done this many times, but I’ve never encountered someone so resistant.
ALIEN: You’re in a dangerous profession, Captain. You face death everyday. There’ll be another time and I’ll be waiting. Eventually you’ll come into my Matrix and you will nourish me for a long, long, time.
]
Anyway, I hope such a worldview is false, and that those who believe it are merely looking at negative NDEs and other supposed evidences and seeing a pattern that isn’t really there. Kind of like how fundamentalist Christians may look at current events and think this is “the last days” with events like a literal Rapture, “Tribulation”, and “Antichrist” to follow.
Hi K,
Yes, people will interpret what they see and hear according to their own pre-existing views of things. Christian trinitarians see the Trinity of Persons everywhere. Protestants see faith alone everywhere. Reincarnationists see reincarnation everywhere. Gnoscics see . . . demiurges everywhere. At least, a certain brand of Gnostic.
So far, we haven’t seen any demiurges in real life. But we have seen Jesus Christ.