The Red Pill Movement (MGTOW): Men Waking Up as Loners

In contrast to the “pickup artists” (PUA), some men have “taken the red pill” when their relationships with women went sour and have chosen what would traditionally be called the bachelor route.

The MGTOW symbol

The MGTOW symbol

These are the MGTOW (pronounced MIG-tau): “Men Going Their Own Way.” The singular is MGHOW: “Man Going His Own Way.”

If you spend any time reading MGTOW websites and forums, you’ll find them populated largely by men who have had hellaciously bad experiences in their relationships with women, and who have decided to opt out. Some continue to have one-night stands with women or use the services of prostitutes in order to satisfy their sex drive. Others “go monk” and become celibate. In this community, men actually brag about being virgins.

Needless to say, PUAs despise MGTOW as Dorito-munching, mother’s-basement-dwelling losers who are sad and lonely because they could never get a girl. And MGTOW despise PUAs as preening, hormone-driven pretty boys whose whole life revolves around the women they despise.

And MGTOW as a group do despise women.

These Red Pill men have woken up, not so much as losers, but as loners.

Most of them had their brush with women, got burned—sometimes quite badly—and decided that it’s better not to play with fire.

And if a man wants to be single, that’s certainly his choice. There have been single men throughout the ages. Some of them have done great things.

The problem is not so much in their deciding to become single, but in their intense disdain for and even hatred of women, and in their blaming women for all of their problems as men.


Once more, as with the first article in this series, “The Red Pill Movement (MRA): Men Waking Up as Victims,” and the second, “The Red Pill Movement (PUA): Men Waking Up as Animals,” we won’t spend time describing the MGTOW community. You can get the basic idea from Wikipedia’s MGTOW article.

The MGTOW movement has also gone through some changes over the years since it first identified itself in the early 2000s. For the “old school” view, see the blog “NO MA’AM” (now apparently inactive) and the original “MGTOW Manifesto”—which lacks the later hostility against women and the “marriage strike” that characterizes much of the MGTOW community today. Today’s MGTOW community is represented in the blog and forums at and in the MGTOW subreddit at

For men in the MGTOW community, these websites are breezy island havens from a hostile, gynocentric, man-hating world. For people not in the MGTOW community, they commonly look more like festering swamps of misogynistic bigotry.


In fact, one of the core dogmas of the Red Pill movement generally, and MGTOW specifically, is represented by the acronym “AWALT.” Here’s how it is defined at the RationalWiki’s slightly satirical “Manosphere glossary” (which is worth reading for its entertainment value alone):

All women are like that

Abbreviation: AWALT

In direct opposition to not all women are like that, the assertion that all women are like that means that females are hard-wired to respond to certain situations in a certain way; and that, more specifically, if given the opportunity, they will tend to behave as manipulative, abusive, sociopathic, destructive, drama-oriented liars. To the extent that women differ from one another, it is in how and to what extent (rather than whether) they manifest these traits when they are allowed to do so.

If you go into a MGTOW forum and say, “Not all women are like that!” (which has its own acronym: NAWALT), you will quickly be shouted down as an infidel and a heretic. AWALT is ex cathedra. It’s an established article of faith. You’re not allowed to question it.

And the MGTOW sites and forums are full of fervent testimonials to AWALT.

See, for example, the article “Comments from Married Men” at It extracts comments from one of its forums on that subject, arranging them in nine sections that have no immediately discernible thematic organization. But the overall theme and message is crystal clear: DON’T BE AN IDIOT LOSER AND GET MARRIED! You’ll regret it every single day for the rest of your life!!!

You’ll regret it because the very second you slip the wedding ring onto her finger, your fun, intelligent, gorgeous, sex-loving soulmate will instantly transform into a fat, lazy, whining, nagging bitch who will never have sex with you again. The day after the wedding she will quit her job and flop down on the couch in front of the TV with a Dove Bar in each fist while simultaneously spending all of your money on plastic crap at Walmart and threatening to clean you out of everything you own if you don’t work 80 hours a week to feed her insatiable desire for clothing, shoes, jewelry, and a much bigger house than this hovel we live in.

Read ’em and weep!

Of course, it’s a self-selecting group. Men in happy marriages don’t go to MGTOW forums on the Internet and recount in lurid detail exactly how execrably atrocious their wife or ex-wife is.

But for those men who do have the misfortune of marrying a captivating young beauty who in the harsh light of the morning turns out to be a lazy, gold-digging harpy, the experience can be so traumatizing that when they see or think “woman,” that image of woman completely fills their field of vision. Nothing else exists.

And so they console one another: “AWALT, man!”

The fully realized MGHOW

Here is the abridged testimonial of a successful MGHOW from the above-linked article:

Thanks to going to bed at 5:30AM after a relaxing night of surfing the internet and watching porn, I slept in a little bit late this morning. It was actually the afternoon – 12:25PM to be exact – when I finally sat up in bed, yawning and scratching my big bachelor nuts. . . .

So, anyway, I’m up at half-twelve. I had a nice cigarette whilst checking my e-mails. Then I had a coffee and another cigarette whilst playing a bit of Soldier of Fortune II until I got bored of shooting virtual people’s virtual brains out. A nice big fry-up followed. Mmmm… sausages and bacon. . . . Come two o’clock and I’m down at the local supermarket. I bought some booze, hamburgers, potatoes, bacon and waffles. I also bought some pizza that, right at this moment in time, I’m currently stuffing into my mouth. Munch munch. I’m also currently watching Beavis & Butthead. I downloaded a few episodes via BitTorrent the other day. It’s not even six and I’m pleasantly drunk, eating pizza and watching some great comedy. What’s planned for this evening? I’ll probably have a nice relaxing bath and read Viz whilst I’m soaking in the tub. Then I’ll probably have a few more glasses of wine and watch some of the many South Park and The Simpsons episodes that are lying around the Hard Drives of my five computers. Also, I’ve just reinstalled Deus Ex and I’d like to play some of that too. Who knows what the future may bring? Whatever I want it to, that’s what.

Are we supposed to be impressed?

As I was reading through this rambling Paean to the Modern Neanderthal Man, it actually started to get funny. I started thinking: This is just too perfect! Maybe the joke’s on us. Maybe this was written as a satirical caricature of a MGHOW. Maybe it will end with the punch line, “Hello, my name is ____, and I’m a MGTOW loser. But at least I don’t have to deal with a nagging bitch of a wife!”

But no, he was serious. He ended with this:

If I was married I would probably be standing in a stupid department store right now, looking at my watch and tutting whilst the wife decides which dress she’s only going to wear once she wants to buy with my money! But I’m not married. I’m an eternal bachelor. To put it another way, I’m eternally happy and free.

“Eternally happy and free” to do what? Totally waste your life?

Yes, my subheading is satirical. I’m well aware that there have been and still are many single men who do great things with their lives. And I’m sure there are many decent and productive men in the MGTOW community.

But with “testimonials” like that, is it any wonder that MGTOW have gotten a reputation for being Dorito-munching, mom’s-basement-dwelling losers?

AWALT is no excuse for LOSER

Okay, “LOSER” isn’t really an acronym for anything in the Red Pill movement.

But many of these Red Pill men, including a disproportionate percentage of MGTOW, have come to the conclusion that their life sucks and that it’s all because of those horrible, horrible females.

So once again I’ll say to Red Pill men: Stop blaming women for your problems. It’s not manly. And it gets you nowhere.

If you’ve hitched yourself to a woman who tears you down and sucks you dry, then by all means do what’s necessary to extricate yourself from the situation. Or if that’s not possible (due to children, etc.), then take whatever steps you need to keep yourself sane.

But you still have to be a man.

You still have to take responsibility for your own life.

You still have to follow your own goals and ideals, and work toward accomplishing something you believe in.

There are many men who are stuck in sucky marriages but who still do great things. They have drive, ambition, and a vision of what they want to accomplish.

Of course, they would prefer to have a good marriage too. But they don’t let their bad marriage stop them from accomplishing their goals. For such a man, the focus is on accomplishments in the world of business or finance or politics or art. Where the money that flows from those accomplishments goes is a secondary consideration. So even if their gold-digging wives or ex-wives are bleeding them dry financially, they keep right on going.

I’m not saying this is a good situation. I’m not saying it’s right for women to leech off of men. Quite the contrary. Some women are indeed blood-sucking gold-diggers. And that is to their great shame.

Rather, I’m saying that if your focus is on money, possessions, and property, then a gold-digging wife is a life-ending disaster for you. But if your focus is on accomplishing something good and worthwhile in the world, you can keep being a winner as a man even if you are the loser financially in marriage or in divorce court.

So do what it takes to make your life work. Extricate yourself from a bad marital situation if you can. Protect what assets you can protect. But don’t blame your terrible wife, or that terrible, blood-sucking female race, or those terrible feminazis, if you are a failure as a man. That’s on your shoulders.

Men must take responsibility for themselves

So to the MGTOW specifically I say: If you want to be single, no problem. That’s your choice.

But take responsibility for your own life. Do something good and productive with your time, energy, and talents. Don’t let your bad experiences with women be an excuse to check out of society and waste away your life in some isolated man cave.

Once again, I speak from experience. I’ve been through the whole thing. When I was young (24, to be exact) and even more foolish than I am today, I married the wrong woman (we were not the best match for each other), and proceeded to have a marriage that was fine at first, but gradually went downhill until it ended in divorce twenty-four years later. By the time the divorce was final, I had spent half of my life in a deteriorating marriage.

Was that my former wife’s fault? It would be nice to be able to blame her. But the fact of the matter is that I was the headstrong young male who pursued her for nine years until she finally agreed to marry me. And though she is, of course, responsible for her own decision to marry me and for whatever she did during the marriage, I can’t avoid responsibility for the fact that I made and pursued the decision to marry her despite many indications that it wasn’t such a great idea.

And when the mismatched marriage finally broke up, it was my job to pick up the pieces of my own life and continue on to accomplish what I am here on earth to do.

That’s what it means to be a man. And the original MGTOW philosophy was not about dissing, denigrating, and blaming women, but about achieving one’s best potential as a man, regardless of what women do.

For some men this will mean being single. For others it will mean being in a relationship or a marriage with a woman.

Either way, a man is responsible for his own life. If you make bad choices or get yourself into bad relationships, that is still your responsibility.

So although I know the men in the Red Pill movement hate to hear it, I’ll say again, as I said at the end of the first article in this series:

Man up, quit complaining, and do the hard work.

If you want to be a man, you have to act like one.

For further reading:


Lee Woofenden is an ordained minister, writer, editor, translator, and teacher. He enjoys taking spiritual insights from the Bible and the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg and putting them into plain English as guides for everyday life.

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23 comments on “The Red Pill Movement (MGTOW): Men Waking Up as Loners
  1. Tony says:

    hi lee

    Good articles about the whole red pill movement, on MGTOW you know that there are several acronyms that are used and one that was not in this article was “red pill rage” this refers to men waking up to society and that it’s not all sunshine and rainbows and this is where men can sometimes falter by staying in this phase.

    This is obviously not good because these men are still letting others have power other them they aren’t really MGTOW, and they need to move on and make something of themselves just like you have stated in this article and not continue to believe that women are these sweet angels that are the centre of their world.

    Anyways good balanced article I am tempted to post these articles on a MGTOW comments section on youtube to see what they think these.

    • Lee says:

      Hi Tony,

      Thanks. I’m glad you liked the articles—especially since you were one of the people who prompted me to write them.

      I agree with you 100% that as long as men let others (in this case, toxic women) have power over them, they aren’t really MGTOW. That’s my biggest problem with the MGTOW movement as it now exists: It’s still heavily stuck in blaming women. And as long as you blame someone else for your problems, you are not taking responsibility for them yourself—and you are also taking the power out of your own hands to do something about your life.

      You’re welcome to post links to the articles if you like. I don’t expect men in the movement to appreciate them, but maybe it will give a few of them something to think about. Someone did link to the first article in the series on the MGTOW subreddit, which led to a spike in hits that lasted for about 24 hours.

  2. No, MGTOW as a philosophy does not “hate women” or “blame women.” The MGTOW point of view is more like “nature hates men.” This is explained in several videos by prominent MGTOW like Barbarossaa, Spetznas and RazorBladeKandy and in a post by yours truly here:

    Reading MGTOW posts on forums and Reddit and saying you understand MGTOW is like reading letters from 3rd graders and saying you understand literature. Most of the guys on these forums are new to MGTOW and, like you said, are just getting over a string of horrible experiences with women. They’re in the process of reshaping their identities and it’s not pretty, but it is necessary.

    Your an ordained minister? Some men who find MGTOW have lost their houses, their children, their wife and half of their property all in the same week. If you were counseling them would you say “hey man, I know you had a bad week, but you need to get over it?”

    If you’ve never been through a situation like that, bully for you. But for people who have lived through something that forces them to confront all of the assumptions they had about men, women, family, society and relationships, words can’t really describe how awful it is to have your identity eviscerated in that way — or how painful it is to rebuild yourself from the rubble.

    Instead of mocking these men, you would do well to try to put yourself in their shoes. If you can’t do that, you’re just part of the misandry and gynocentrism MGTOW fights and you’re every bit as bad as the feminists.

    • Lee says:

      Hi Dick,

      Thanks for stopping by and taking the time to respond, and for the link.

      As a matter of fact, I did go through all of that, and I did have to rebuild my life from the rubble.

      It took longer than a week, but within a fairly short time I lost job, career, property, and everything else you mention except for my children—whom, as I said in the first article in the series, I was able to continue to be an active father to for the rest of their growing up years. Other than that, nearly everything from my former life, which had been stable for over a decade, is now long gone. I was able to walk away a free man who still had a relationship with his children. But other than that, in the end I lost everything. Not half. Everything but some personal possessions. This was not only because of my ex-wife and the divorce, but due to the whole circumstance of my life at the time based largely on decisions I had made myself. So once again, I don’t blame my ex-wife for it. And this isn’t a self-therapy blog, so I don’t spend time talking about it here. But it took me years to claw my way over the rubble and out of that bomb crater.

      In short, I’m not just talking out of my ass. I know exactly what it feels like, because I’ve been through it myself.

      And of course I don’t know as much about the MGTOW movement as you and others in the movement do. However, it was months ago that some of my readers asked if I would write something about the Red Pill movement, so I started paying attention to it and researching it. I’ve read many articles by MGTOW leaders and by standard news outlets about the Red Pill movement, as well as spending time reading the forums at Reddit and Does that make me an expert on MGTOW? No. And I don’t claim to be one. But it was enough to give me the gist and flavor of the movement. And in my articles I focused on what seemed to me to be most important to say about it to my readers and to any Red Pill men who happen to stop by here and read the articles.

      You could say that as a philosophy MGTOW does not hate women, and perhaps that’s true. But as a practical reality, MGTOW articles and forums are dripping with disdain for and yes, hatred of women. AWALT by itself is an example of caricaturing the worst aspects of women and tarring all women with the same biased brush. So you can quibble about whether or not it is “hatred” of women, and whether that is part of the “philosophy” of MGTOW, but the effect is the same: women are seen as defective creatures who are inferior to men, and as a major component of men’s problems, if not the major component—and are treated as such.

      Nor am I particularly impressed with blaming it on nature rather than blaming it on women. My response to that is the same: suck it up. You’re still a man, and you still have to take responsibility for your own life. Everyone faces difficult circumstances. What separates the men from the boys is that the men recognize the circumstances and don’t use them as an excuse for paralysis and inaction. Men have been facing these circumstances for hundreds of thousands of years now. And we seem to have survived as men.

      If circumstances have changed and what worked for thousands of years no longer works, then by all means go ahead and work to change the societal situation to the extent that it’s possible. We live at a time in human history when a massive paradigm shift is taking place, starting several centuries ago with the Age of Enlightenment. I have no quarrel with Red Pillers and MGTOW working to make the world a better place for men (though that seems to be mostly an MRA thing). But I do have a quarrel with their saying, “Women, nature, and the whole world are against us! Woe is us!” Feminists say the same thing about men, nature, and the whole world. So how is the Red Pill perspective any different from the gynocentric perspective than Red Pillers see as the enemy? It’s just a mirror image of the same thing they’re fighting against. And that makes it a zero sum game. It’s not a workable perspective on the problem. It doesn’t provide a real solution, but only perpetuates a battle of opposing forces that results in stalemate, not progress.

      Despite my use of some light satire, the purpose of my articles is not to denigrate Red Pillers in general, and MGTOW in particular. Rather, it is to give a kick to the butt and say, “Quit complaining, quit blaming everyone and everyone else, take responsibility for your own life, and get to work. And by the way, quitting society is not a real solution.” I have no quarrel with those in the movement who are already taking responsibility for their own lives and doing the hard work. But it’s impossible to spend much time in any kind of contact with the Red Pill movement without getting a serious dose of, “My life sucks because of everyone and everything else—especially those damn women.” How is that different from Hillary blaming everyone and everything else for her election loss (those evil Russians, Comey, even the DNC) while claiming to take full responsibility for it? The same inherent contradiction suffuses the Red Pill movement. That’s my main quarrel with it.

      But to answer your your question more directly, I certainly would not say “get over it” on Monday of the next week. That would be heartless, and the wrong time to say such a thing. But over time, yes, that would be exactly my message. It happened, and there’s nothing you can do about that. You can’t undo history. And you need to move on with your life. Yes, you’ll still have to deal with the fallout. It’s not going to be easy. Speaking for myself, I’m still dealing with stray fallout to this day, even though ground zero in my life was a decade ago. But you can’t let your past cripple your present and your future. You have to leave it behind and move on with your life.

      You also have to pick your battles, and decide what’s worth fighting for, as compared to what you’re fighting about mostly from hurt, anger, and a desire to win and for your ex to lose. I made the decision that my relationship with my children was worth fighting for, but the money was not. And I remain happy with that decision to this day. Once the initial bomb has dropped and the initial rupture is over, being a man means regaining your balance and thinking strategically rather than emotionally, assessing the situation, and determining what, exactly your goals will be going forward, what’s worth expending your energy on, and what you just need to let go of. That is also the counsel I would give over time to a man who has been through the type of devastation I went through.

  3. The Ghost says:

    You may have thought you read all you need to know but you still don’t get it, do you? You think we WANT to do “something meaningful” with our lives. That’s for the sheeple like you who just blindly follow the herd off the cliff. We’re opting out of life completely, working only as much to sustain ourselves and our simple lifestyles. We are no longer willing to contribute to the anti-white, anti-male society that hates us. And you know what? We’re happy! Yes, happy! That may surprise a herd-follower like you but you’re not “going your own way” are you? And no, I don’t blame women at all. I blame the enablers like you who treat them like Queens when they’re nothing but wicked witches of the West. You are like those perpetual morons who hold up those “Refugees Welcome” signs, inviting in the filth of the world to rob, rape and murder us because it makes YOU feel good, consequences be damned. So now these witches prance around thinking that they’re worth more than the contempt they deserve, preying on yet another sad sack chump and ruining his life. I suggest you grow up and grow a pair. Women are not angels and their corrupt morals have been, and will continue to be, the downfall of many a great man.

    • Lee says:

      Hi The Ghost,

      Thanks for stopping by, and for your comment.

      Your insults are standard MGTOW boilerplate, so I’ll pass them over for now and focus on the substance of your comment. But please do see our comments policy.

      As I said in the article, if you want to be single, that’s certainly your choice.

      Further, if you want to live subsistence-style, that is also your choice. However, if you work at all, you are still contributing to society in one way or another. Humans as a species are social animals, not loners. It is very difficult to entirely unplug from human society and still survive. If your choice is to contribute only minimally to society, at least you are contributing to society at that minimal level.

      Notice, though, that the celebrated scientists, mathematicians, inventors, and philosophers featured on the History page were not men who withdrew into their shell and contributed as little as possible to human society. They are great men precisely because they made great contributions to the advancement of human science, mathematics, technology, and philosophy, thus raising the level of humanity as a whole. If you choose to live at a subsistence level and contribute as little as possible to a society that you see as corrupt, once again that is your own choice. But in making that choice for yourself and your life you are ensuring that you will never join the ranks of those great men.

      You say that you don’t blame women, but then you go on to call them wicked, moronic, morally corrupt witches who are the downfall of many a great man.

      No, women are not angels.

      Neither are men.

      All of us here on earth are in process.

      Considering all women to be utterly corrupt and unsalvageable monsters is no more rational than considering all women to be spotlessly pure angelic beings standing high up on pedestals. Here on earth we humans, both men and women, are neither angels nor devils. We all live on a spectrum somewhere in between—some closer to the angelic end of the spectrum, some closer to the demonic end of the spectrum, and most in the vast, mixed middle.

      I am truly sorry that you and your fellow MGTOW have had such bad experiences with women. Women can indeed be horribly corrupt, just as men can be. And for those men unfortunate enough to get tangled up with a corrupt woman, the results are often horrifying.

      However, just because you and your fellow MGTOW have experienced those particular women, that does not mean every man’s experience with women is the same as yours. It is not rational to ignore the facts and realities of human life. Contrary to AWALT dogma, the fact of the matter is that there are many happily married men who are doing great things and whose wives are supporters of and even equal partners in their great accomplishments. Just because you and your fellow MGTOW got the short end of the stick with women, and have not experienced that reality for yourselves, that does not mean it doesn’t exist.

      Your life is in your own hands. You can do with it what you wish. If your experiences with women have been so scarring that you can never consider being with a woman again, I can understand that. Just understand that your experience with women is not every man’s experience with women.

      And realize that if you want to be a great man, you have to do great things.

      • mikekto says:

        MGTOW.COM is the garbage can of MGTOW. I used to go there for over a year. The infighting. The division of group think and if someone disagrees with you they call you a tradon or something. I got banned from there because I had a huge disagreement. They had the nerve to ask me to apologize to them.
        I thought I could trust these people but they ended lying about me. It just shows some of these men don’t even deserve a decent woman because it’s all the women’s fault. Personally I take my responsibility for my choices and I refuse to let some woman trying chop my balls off.
        I used to be a nice guy. Not a push over nice guy but treat women with respect but these women feared me.
        I remember one woman ended going out with an assholes and then complain about him to me. She didn’t want a relationship with me because she feared getting close again. With an asshole she knows won’t get as close.
        Same thing happened with another woman. She used to come to my work and flirt at me for several months. Then she asked me why i never asked her out and I told her I didn’t have her number. I called a few days later and she ended the call very quickly and acted like I was a creep. I saw her a few times cross the street. She wouldn’t even look at me. I found it odd since she was the one who approached me. A year later she comes to me and ask if I wanted to be with her and that was pregnant. Naturally I said no, since treated me so rudely. I was never mad at these women but a lot of men are avoiding decent men because they fear getting close again.
        I remember a tourist acting strange. He acted as if a war was going on. He told me that women in the city didn’t respect men at all, treated men rather poorly and suggest go to my homeland (I’m Asian btw) to get married. It was one or two women it was a lot of women.

        This is what is going on with women these days no respect for me. It is literally women kicking men in the balls. This is something I will never tolerate from a woman.

        • Lee says:

          Hi mikekto,

          Thanks for stopping by, and for your various comments.

          In my experience, every movement has its infighting. And in many of them, the faithful spend more time fighting each other than they do working toward their common cause in the wider world. Looking in on the MGTOW movement from the outside, it looks like it’s no exception to that common pattern.

          About your experiences with women: People, both men and women, tend naturally to be selfish jerks, even if they’re skilled at covering it over from other people and from themselves with a veneer of civility and concern for others. For most people, it takes a lifetime of conscious effort to grow out of that. And many people just never bother to make the effort. That’s the primary reason why relationships are so hard, and fail so often. For a riff on that theme with a touch of satire, see my article: “How to Attract the Opposite Sex—and Keep ’Em.”

          Further, it’s all too easy to blame the opposite sex, but be blind to our own jerkiness that gets in the way of developing good relationships. But complaining about and blaming the opposite sex really doesn’t accomplish anything, because we can’t personally do anything about other people’s shortcomings. Only about our own. So although it’s much harder to take responsibility for our own contributions to bad experiences with the opposite sex, it has the potential to be a lot more effective in finding and creating better relationships for ourselves.

          In general, I think men should be men, and not try to accommodate themselves to what everyone else, including women, think they should be. However, that’s not a license to be a prick. It’s a man’s job to be a good man. And that includes not just the traditional male attributes of physical and mental strength, etc., but also honesty, respect for others, personal integrity, and so on. The best way to attract a good woman and avoid all the divas is to be a good man, and stand on your own integrity as a man. Women who are drama queens will quickly dump a man who doesn’t put up with their BS. And that’s a good thing. But women who have a solid character of their own will appreciate a man who has strength of character but isn’t a jerk about it.

          And yes, fear of closeness and intimacy is a real thing. The more a woman (or man) opens up, the more vulnerable s/he becomes to being taken advantage of and hurt badly. It takes time and a lot of thoughtfulness on both sides to develop a level of trust that allows for real closeness and openness between two people.

  4. Steven Timm says:

    YESSSSSSSSSSSS!!! Thank you so very much, Lee!!!! I stumbled on your article while doing some recon work on the blue pill and I cannot thank you enough for your article on MGTOW and the Red Pill. It was kind of funny, because I read that posting on MGTOW about the person playing Soldier of Fortune II, tutting at his wife at the department store, etc. I found that article several years ago and I loved it!!

    Myself, I went MGTOW many years ago and swallowed the red pill. I like your article because you are not, in my opinion, lashing out at men, MGTOW or the Red Pill philosophies. Rather, you are challenging men who already are MGTOW to truly live up to the real meaning of MGTOW and not blame women for all their problems in life. I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. Personal accountability needs to be the refrain of everyone on Earth, but sadly, this is becoming a rare commodity indeed.

    Personally, I have gone monk on my MGTOW journey. That has been a difficult decision, but, in companion to this, I also declare the name of Christ in my life and therefore I believe that sexual union should only be practiced in the bonds of marriage, and I understand the restrictions Christ has placed on sexuality and the reason behind those restrictions. I do not like using women just for my sexual pleasure and for no other purpose. Now, some MGTOW’s would disagree with me on this, but with a chosen lifestyle, as you mentioned, comes accountability. If I declare the name of Christ in my life, then I will be held accountable to that name and how I treated creatures that he created in his own image.

    I agree with the Psalmist when he says to find a righteous woman is more valuable that rubies! I know some men that have Proverbs 31 women as wives and to be very honest, it kind of makes me jealous in a way! I esteem those women highly as they take after such giants as Hannah, Deborah, Ruth, Hagar, Sarah, Leah, Rachel and above them all is the Mother of our Lord, Mary.

    Thank you again, Lee for getting to the heart of MGTOW and what it truly means!

    God Bless you, Lee and keep declaring the truth!!

    Steve Timm.

    • Lee says:

      Hi Steven,

      Thanks for stopping by, and for your good thoughts. Yes, my purpose in writing the article is not to attack anyone, but rather to offer a spiritually-based perspective on MGTOW, and to give a kick in the behind to MGTOW who have retreated to their own private island where they’re going nowhere fast and blaming women for their withdrawal from society and their lack of any real goals or accomplishments in life.

      That sort of thing I have little respect for. But your view and commitment to what it means for you to be a MGTOW I can respect.

  5. samuel2112 says:

    Thank you Lee for your article. I recently discovered Swedenborg. I am a practicing Buddhist but appreciate Christian Mystics as well. It is ironic that Swedenborg never married and may have been MGTOW himself.
    Lee, MGTOW is about men feeling valuable within and feeling worthy as human beings. Society gives men messages from love songs and movies that to be complete as a human being you need to have a wife or girlfriend. I realize women get the same messages. MGTOW should not be about hatred of women at all. However some men have had as you had stated have had some horrific experiences with woman and need a safe space to vent. Society has encouraged men to hold in their feelings and be like a macho tough guy. It is not healthy for men to hold it in and many MGTOW men are very hurt. Eventually, as MGTOW men heal as I have don, they begin to take responsibility for themselves and see the pointlessness of blaming women for their problems.
    MGTOW is some ways has some similarities to feminism in that feminism has told some women that a woman needs a man like “a fish needs a bicycle”. MGTOW is saying the the same things to men. MGTOW is about men valuing themselves as human beings not contingent on having a female significant other. MGTOW is about men redefining their gender roles as just be strong and don’t feel. MGTOW has allowed men to get in touch with their feelings-it is helpful to feel your emotions at times in a healthy way. Yes I hear what you are saying Lee, the misogyny coming from some MGTOW is excessive and uncalled for. However, these men are hurt and angry. It is better they vent on the internet than hurt themselves or others. Remember most of the angry MGTOW’s are in the beginning stages and raw. Eventually, these men learn how to be independent and happy being single. Healing takes time. In fact MGTOW is sort of like men’s liberation from their societal and gender roles as feminism is for some women. MGTOW has helped men get started on some type of spiritual path. Isn’t it interesting that Swedenborg never married- I am not sure he had girlfriends. But he certainly “went his own way” as an independent thinker and didn’t conform to society’s gender roles. Back then for people to be unmarried-you stood out more than today where it is more common. Lee check out this video

    • Lee says:

      Hi samuel2112,

      Thanks for stopping by, and for your thoughtful comment. I think there is much truth and reality to what you say. And I do hope these early stage MGTOW will eventually heal from their awful experiences with women and focus more on developing themselves both as men and as human beings.

      When Swedenborg was a young man he did make an effort to woo and marry a woman. Unfortunately for him, the object of his affections did not return them. When he realized this, he released her from the written pledge of marriage to him that her father had given him. That experience seems to have taken the wind out of his sails, though there is some indication that he may have made one or two further unsuccessful attempts at courtship before settling into the life of a bachelor. So perhaps he was, in a sense, a MGHOW.

      However, unlike today’s garden variety MGHOW, Swedenborg continued to have a great affection for women throughout his life, and clearly longed to be married. So if he did “go his own way,” it was due to his circumstances rather than to his own inclination or choice. And it certainly never involved any rejection of or distaste for women.

      Later in life, during his theological period, he wrote an entire highly evocative (and highly controversial) book about marriage. In that book he states that marriage is the ideal God-given state for men and women to be in, and far preferable to celibacy—which he describes as an unfortunate and much less spiritual state.

      Some of his personal writings indicate that he believed that a particular highly intelligent woman known to him would be his eternal marriage partner in the spiritual world. However, a relationship with her was impossible in this world because she was already married—to a man ill-suited to her character.

      As I say in the above article, it’s entirely a man’s choice whether he wishes to have a relationship with a woman. And if a particular man wants to be single, that is his prerogative. However, I continue to believe that for those who are able and willing, being married is ultimately a more satisfying and more spiritual way of life.

  6. samuel2112 says:

    Thank you Lee for your excellent explanation of Swedenborg and his “love life”. I thin your blog is magnificent. I have been involved with mens groups and mens liberation for a while. Your blog needs to be in a book eventually-you have a very authentic, and balanced view on gender relations. I think one of the biggest problems for our society now is the horrific relations between men and women but rarely is it discussed inasmuch as it makes men and women uncomfortable.

    I do disagree with one opinion you have. You wrote “However, I continue to believe that for those who are able and willing, being married is ultimately a more satisfying and more spiritual way of life.” This is why MGTOW (without the misogyny) is so needed. Men have gotten messages through love songs, holidays like Valentine’s day.” that to feel complete they need to have a female significant other. I would say that for some men being single can be a more satisfying and spiritual way of life. I think the Apostle Paul mentioned that being single can be superior in some ways than being married. In today’s time where more and more human beings are single more than ever given the nature of our society and gender relations, single men need to be encouraged that they are valuable being single. Single men need to be encouraged that they are complete within themselves. Single men need to be encouraged that being single is not weird, or makes a man an outcast-that in fact their are advantages to a man being single. Single men for example, have more time to do service work for our society and are not limited in any way by having a partner and/or family.

    Here is my point Lee. You mentioned Swedenborg writing highly of marriage as superior to being single. I had read that Swedenborg had a view of marriage where a person does not necessarily have to be married to another person. I had read that Swedenborg mentioned you could be married to yourself. is that so?After all although Swedenborg had unrequited love, he still was single his whole life so it would not be unusual for him to say this. What Swedenborg meant by being married to yourself is having a relationship with your inner essence-your inner soul and spirit. So while I agree with you Lee that Swedenborg wrote highly of marriage it did not necessarily mean one has to be coupled. According to Swedenborg you could be married to yourself.

    I respect your view as marriage being superior to singlehood for men and you have it appears a very healthy marriage. I just want to say that men choosing to stay single maybe equally as valuable and some men may actually evolve spiritually and emotionally being single than being married. Our culture is fascinated by being couples that it makes single people feel sort of left out or bad. For example, so many songs on pop radio stations are about being in a relationship. Many movies especially romantic ones have a theme of somehow meeting Prince or Princess charming as one’s salvation. But thankfully much Christian pop music has lyrics relating to the love of God and man. I just want to close that I think it is important for single men to value themselves in their singleness and know that if they desire a life without a woman by their side in a marriage or relationship, that their life can be just as happy and fulfilling. Keep up the great blog Lee.

    • Lee says:

      Hi samuel2112,

      Thanks for continuing the conversation. I do appreciate and enjoy the open-minded and open-hearted spirit in which you write.

      And thanks for your kind words about the blog. We recently passed 300 posts, which probably amounts to fifteen or twenty books’ worth of articles. And I do plan to turn some of this material into books in the future, not to mention writing some books from scratch. For now, though, this blog is where I (together with my wife) express and develop my thoughts on matters spiritual and practical.

      To respond first to your further thoughts on Swedenborg: I would say that Swedenborg mentioned that we could be married within ourselves rather than married to ourselves. More specifically, Swedenborg said that achieving a marriage of good and truth, or love and wisdom, or head and heart, within ourselves is the whole point of the path of “regeneration” or spiritual rebirth. Until both our head and our heart are fully “partnered” with each other and engaged in whatever work or activities we do to benefit and care for our fellow human beings, we are not fully developed as a spiritual (and thus true) human being.

      I cover this idea a little more, together with its relation to interpersonal marriage, in the article, “Marriage in the Resurrection: The Deeper Meaning.” In particular, the sections titled “Becoming married within ourselves” and “Inner marriage is necessary for interpersonal marriage” deal with this subject.

      So yes, I do believe, based on my understanding of Swedenborg and my experience of human life, that single people, both men and women, can grow and develop spiritually just as married people can. My preference for the married state does not mean I think single people are left out in the cold, or are somehow lesser human beings. We are all beloved of God, and God has a path forward and upward for all of us, whatever our relationship circumstances might be here on earth. (And honestly, it’s hard to imagine Swedenborg accomplishing what he did if he had been married here on earth.)

      I also suspect that many people who do not marry here on earth due to unfortunate experiences or circumstances, but who do the work of achieving that “inner marriage” or “spiritual marriage,” may in the other life find that the barriers to being married here on earth fade away, and find a partner to spend eternity with. However, I also believe there is room in heaven for those who continue to choose a single life.

      Yes, Paul said he wished people would remain single as he did. And that has heavily influenced large segments of the Christian Church, which consider celibacy to be a superior and more spiritual state than marriage. However, Paul also expected Christ to return very soon—within his lifetime. His general advice was for the married to stay married and the single to stay single until Christ came, when he thought everything would be reshuffled anyway. Of course, Christ did not come soon—at least, not in the way that Paul and many of the other early Christians expected. And that puts a different light on Paul’s sayings about being single or married.

      Back to the earlier subject, I do agree with you that people who buy into the popular cultural message that getting married will fix all your problems, make life instantly wonderful, and cause you to live happily ever after are in for a major letdown and crash if they get married with these pie-in-the-sky ideas running around in their head. The reality is that if you don’t do the hard work of developing yourself as a thoughtful, moral, compassionate, and spiritual person, you will never be able to sustain a good, deep, and happy relationship with another human being, especially within a marriage. Along these lines, see my article: “How to Attract the Opposite Sex—and Keep ‘Em.” (It gets better. I promise! 😀 )

      So even if you and I may be standing across the fence from each other on the issue of being single vs. being married, I think we agree that no matter which life we choose, developing our own self, and the “spiritual marriage” within ourselves, is a critical task without which the rest will ultimately not have much meaning or effectiveness.

  7. john smith says:

    As is the usual case, the elephant in the room is completely ignored. What is it, you ask? It is the law and the plethora of industries that have grown up around it. In America, it is the Violence Against Women Act and its evil progeny. To quote Charles Dickens, “The purpose of the law is to create business for itself”.

    The number of vultures that feed off the carcass of failed relationships is legion. As always, follow the money and it will lead you to the truth. Watch the documentary “Divorce Corp” as your primer to the new (now growing old) reality.

    “Divorce Corp” is just the tip of the iceberg. Did you know the VAWA finances a womens shelter in every county in the country? And who do you think staffs them? Do some research on Title IV-D of the Social Security Code. It gives judges financial incentives to award child custody to the lower earning parent (almost always the mother).

    And then there is the reintroduction of debtors prison. The marriage contract is the only civil contract that upon disolution can, and will, be criminalized with imprisonment penalities (almost always the man).

    The list goes on and on and on. In essence, the legal system now encourages a woman to destroy a man for any whim as they gladly hold him down at the point of a gun to transfer his current wealth and future wealth to the woman and the legal community. Just that simple.

    So, no, we MGTOW do not hate women. We understand them. You can love women or you can understand them, but you can’t do both. And yes, their behaviour is genetically based (read up on Dawkins’ Selfish Gene Theory and do a logical extrapolation) . Hating an animal for what it does naturally is stupid. Respecting its power and avoiding it in the wild is wise.

    What we do hate and fear is the awesome and destructive power of the state and its gun toting enforcers. Only an absolute fool would expose himself to such punative power. So, no thanks, we’re going our own way. This system cannot last and it cannot be fixed. So we make a drink, kick back, and enjoy the show. Cheers.

    • Lee says:

      Hi John,

      Thanks for stopping by, and for your comment.

      As I said in the article, if you want to be single, that’s certainly your choice. But others of us make a different choice, and we don’t necessarily get destroyed by that choice, as so many MGTOW seem to have been in the past.

      Are there bad laws on the books that need to be amended or repealed altogether? Yes. Legions of them. I’m no friend of the metastasizing power of the state. And I’m in support of those groups whose purpose is to repeal or amend various bad laws.

      However, there are bad laws everywhere on earth. Pending the reform or the collapse of the various governments, we still have to live with them. And except in highly corrupt countries, it is possible to live a reasonably self-directed and workable life.

      That includes men who wish to be in a relationship with or married to a woman. As I also said in the article, I speak from experience. I’ve been through the divorce mill. And I didn’t go to debtor’s prison, nor did I have my life destroyed. Sure, it was no fun, and it knocked me down for a while. But although the divorce was not my choice, I was able to achieve my primary goals in the terms of the divorce, which were to remain an active father to my children and to sever all financial ties with my ex-wife. Not every man gets fleeced in the divorce court, and not every woman sucks the man dry. A decade later, I have a very good life, and my ex-wife is merely a past memory for me.

      Further, the “selfish gene” doesn’t apply only to women. It applies to men as well. We all start out selfish, men and women alike. And many of us never grow out of it. The Violence Against Women Act does deal with a particular type of harm that the selfishness of men inflicts upon women, even if in the opinion of the Red Pill community, it goes too far in dealing with that selfishness. But the fact of the matter is that many men do perpetrate violence on their wives and girlfriends. And one of the proper purposes of the state is to protect people from violence perpetrated by other people. As long as men perpetrate violence against women, the state is going to intervene—and properly so.

      It does no good for the Red Pill movement to ignore this reality, and attempt to paint women as the evil aggressors and men as the innocent victims. That’s the same thing that the more radical end of feminism does, only the other way around. And neither one of them is a realistic or balanced picture of men, women, and the relationships between them.

      The Red Pill movement would do well to take domestic violence seriously, and to work toward stopping the violence that many men perpetrate against women. If it did so, then it might have a greater voice in reforming VAWA, because people not in the movement would have more respect for the Red Pill movement, rather than viewing it as yet one more unbalanced movement based on a wild conspiracy theory.

      Are some women blood-sucking gold-diggers? Yes, of course. Are all women blood-sucking gold-diggers? No. The reality of hundreds of millions of happily married men who remain happily married for the rest of their lives demonstrates that the AWALT dogma of the Red Pill movement is simply false.

      But if you choose to believe that dogma, you will see nothing else, because you’ll see everything through its filter, meaning you will simply not see the fact that many women do not conform to your particular conspiracy theory about women.

      So if you’ve had a bad experience with the wrong woman, and want to remain single, that’s certainly your choice. But there’s a much bigger world out there, and it’s filled with all kinds of different people. Including women who are good, loving, thoughtful, intelligent, and decent people.

      • john smith says:

        Lee, I will only address a few of your counter arguements. First, I will address your defense of VAWA.

        On its surface VAWA appears to be a shield of protection enacted with the best of intentions. But as the saying goes, “The road to hell is paved with good intentions”. It has morphed into a sword of agression. Or was that its intended purpose all along? Evident says that it was intented to be a weapon from the get go. It is based upon the Duluth Model whose authors openly admit was written, enacted, and enforced to be anti-male. Look it up.

        While looking up the truth about the Duluth Model, also look up Lisa Scott Law. She is a family law attorney in Tacoma. She describes the issuance of restraining orders as so commonly used as the opening salvo in a divorce it has become a “sport”. A TRO not only ejects a man from his home, it has the effect of placing him in a legal straight jacket from which there is no escape. TRO’s are given out like Halloween candy. What judge in his right mind is going to deny one? Answer, none. Been there, done that.

        The man’s legal right to his property is denied without due process as the TRO process is ex parte. He has no chance to defend himself before gun toting enforcers forcibly remove him from his home. This is clearly unconstitutional but still has been blessed by SCOTUS.

        The unconstitutionality of this legal abomination gets worse. The Lautenburg Amendment denies a man possession of firearms or ammunition if there is a restraining order against him. He has committed no crime but is yet again denied his property without due process and a clear violation of the 2nd Amendment. And yet again, SCOTUS has blessed this slap in the face of the Founding Fathers and Constitution.

        I could go on and on about how the so-called justice system is so heavily stacked against a man in a legal contest with a woman. The ethos is “man bad, woman good”. And lets not forget the aforementioned financial incentives to crucify the man. For a man, the carving above the courthouse door should quote from Dante’s Inferno; “Abandon all hope ye who enter here”. The process is a passion play where everyone in the courtroom knows the predetermined outcome except the poor schmuck who is the object of the exercise. Been there, done that.

        Second, I will address the AWALT versus NAWALT argument in a legal context. Your experince in court was determined solely by your ex. Either she did not possess the vindictive streak so many women have or you didn’t have enough assets to make it worth her and her slime ball attorney’s time to go after. That would make her a NAWALT not by her alturistic nature but by the high degree of rational self-interest all women possess in spades.

        To close my counter arguement with the facts and the truth: Are all women like that? No, but enough of them are to make the risk far out weigh the reward.

        Lastly, you are obviously what we call a blue pill tradcon. And there is no chance of having you change your beliefs. You may or may not reply to this post but if you do I request a favor. Do your own research on the links I have given you and then try a logical fact based arguement to me, not blue pill tradcon dogma myths that no longer apply.

        BTW, MGTOW saves lives. It pulled the pistol out of my mouth and I am sure countless others. For that reason alone you should be supportive of us. Cheers.

        • Lee says:

          Hi John,

          My argument really isn’t about the VAWA. You may be right. It may be a travesty that should be repealed.

          Rather, my argument is that there are always bad laws, and we have to either get them changed or learn to live with them. Mostly the latter, because bad laws are rarely repealed. Laws—even “temporary” ones—tend to live forever, until the nation making them collapses under its own weight. And then the process starts all over again. This cycle has been happening for thousands of years, ever since humans first began to organize themselves into kingdoms and nations.

          Further, my argument is that violence against women, perpetrated by men, is a real thing, and should be taken just as seriously by the Red Pill movement as it is by the feminist opposition. The Red Pill movement would then be in a much better position to have a seat at the table in influencing the direction of future legislation. Opposing everything intended to deal with domestic violence just isn’t a viable position to take. Taking domestic violence seriously would also be men taking responsibility for the wrongs of men, and not just blaming everything on women. When men are bad, Red Pill men should recognize that.

          In other words, “woman bad, man good” is not a viable alternative to “man bad, woman good.” Sometimes women are bad, sometimes men are bad. Sometimes men are good, sometimes women are good. As long as the Red Pill movement sees women (and feminism) as the enemy, and as generally or wholly evil, it will continue to be engaged in a losing battle. It will be philosophically no better than the feminist opposition, except that it won’t have the power that the feminist opposition currently has politically and socially. And it will gain no traction with the wider society, which just isn’t going to buy its “man good, woman bad” philosophy.

          I’m glad MGTOW saved your life. I don’t oppose MGTOW as such. Rather, I critique it from a position of greater objectivity, having experienced both the bad and the good of both women and men. Besides my personal experiences with marriage and divorce, I used to be a pastor. I was privy to many domestic situations. Sometimes the man was the bad guy and the woman was the good guy. Sometimes the woman was the bad guy and the man was the good guy. Sometimes they were both good guys, but just had some practical and relationship issues. And sometimes they were both bad guys. The AWALT dogma is wrong because it sees only what it wants to see, and not the complex reality of men, women, and their widely varying characters and relationships as they actually exist out there in the real world.

          I have done funerals for both men and women who lived in long, happy marriages, sometimes lasting 60+ years, and who were good, solid, contributing members of the community. I have seen how the husband and wife loved and supported each other through those years, to the point where, as the Bible says, they were no longer two, but one. My own parents were an example. And having seen that, no, it won’t be possible for you to convince me that your anti-woman dogma is the “rational” and “realistic” view of women, men, and their relationships. I know from experience that there are many very good women who simply don’t conform to your AWALT dogma.

          I understand that MGTOW generally are MGTOW because they were on the wrong side of the gender complexity that exists in society, and got tangled up with the wrong women. But that doesn’t make the whole world that way, and it doesn’t make all women that way. If you’ve been burned too badly to ever engage with women again, I can understand and respect that. But not every man has your terrible experience with women. Generalizing from your experience with women, together with the experience with women of your fellow MGTOW, to draw the conclusion that that’s how all, or even most, women are is not objective or rational. And aren’t men supposed to be better than women at being objective and rational?

          As for my being “obviously a blue pill tradcon,” that’s just standard Red Pill name-calling. And in my case, it’s not only wrong, but ridiculously wrong.

          I believe in freedom and self-determination for both men and women. I don’t think men should rule over women, nor do I think women should rule over men. I’m opposed to both traditional feminist values and to what has now become traditional men’s rights movement values. Both, in my view, are unbalanced reactions and pendulum swings to real and longstanding gender problems. But neither has a very good answer to those problems, because neither takes a balanced view of men and women.

          We are in a time of massive cultural and spiritual change. Changing gender roles are a key part of that change. I don’t advocate going back to the old, traditional roles, as a tradcon would. Rather, I advocate leaving both men and women free to determine their own roles, believing that the inherent differences between men and women will, in time, given freedom, settle down into a new and better pattern of gender relations than we have ever had in recorded human history.

  8. Shaun says:

    As an Australian MGTOW I’d like to make a few points: There are different levels of MGTOW and factions within the movement. I’ve been married before, had GF’s, but now I am not interested in any serious relationship with a woman, I have been MGTOW for two and a half years now. I had been a MGTOW for a while without realizing it.

    Basically, I just live for myself. spend all my money mostly on myself. I’m nearly 50 and reasonably financially secure.I only work part-time. I like to buy gold and silver and expensive watches, go to the beach, go fishing sometimes, go to coffee shops,pat my dog, check out a movie sometimes. I find I don’t need women at all really apart from sex sometimes. I have always given some money to certain charities and still do.

    I am a regular visitor to Pattaya, I love the place, not just for the sex. My ex-wife is Asian, all my GF’s have been Asian ( I’m white ) I am just living a fairly simple life now, no stress.

    There are some men in MGTOW and the MRM ( Men’s Right’s Movement ) who really do hate women, I’ll admit that. Whilst not being a hater I’ll say though that nearly all relationships between men and women ( nowadays ) are based on expediency: Getting seriously involved with a woman is generally a waste of time, money, and resources. Women are hypergamous, that means their main goal and drive is to obtain money/resources or some sort of gain from men. A lot of blue pill men fail to understand this, or they are are just stupid beta male cucks who don’t care .Many MGTOW have talked about this on You Tube.

    I will even admit that some women are ok, but finding them is the proverbial needle in a haystack thing. Just have ONS, be a PUA. or use hookers. It is the best way.

    As for that guy you talked about who likes to stay at home, sleep, and eat pizza, play video games and have a BBQ or “cook out” or “fry up” as you say in USA, who is to say he is loser? If he is happy and content and doing what he wants he is a winner. Not my sort of thing his lifestyle, but each to their own.

    Why should anyone “contribute” to “mainstream society”, or worse still, get married? Marriage is just the road to devastation, slavery, and ruin. I encourage all young men not to marry and have kids. Do not waste your life on a marriage!

    • Lee says:

      Hi Shaun,

      Thanks for stopping by, and for your comment.

      Once again, if you want to be single, that’s certainly your choice. Nobody should be pressured or guilted into marriage when they aren’t crazy about the idea. Whatever else it is, and for all its joys and satisfactions, marriage is also a lot of hard personal work. Doing that work has to be freely chosen by the people involved.

      It sounds like you haven’t been totally swallowed up by the Red Pill echo chamber. AWALT starts to sound true when everyone around you is loudly shouting it in a camp-revival-like atmosphere.

      The reality is that pretty much all of us, men and women alike, start out in adult life fairly immature and self-absorbed in one way or another. It’s just that women tend to be immature and self-absorbed in different ways than men do. And for men, their own form of immature and self-absorbed looks okay (because they’re embedded in it, and therefore have no perspective on it), whereas women’s way of being immature and self-absorbed looks terrible and inexcusable (because they’re seeing it from the outside). For women, it’s exactly the same, except in the other direction.

      The reality is that it takes time, intention, and a lot of hard work for anyone, man or woman, to grow up and become a thoughtful and mature human being. Unfortunately, by that time a lot of people have gotten burned in their relationships with the opposite sex, and have gone sour on the opposite sex. Hence all the AWALT males and man-hating females.

      But not all of ’em. Some of ’em grow up and get a better perspective on themselves and the other sex. Some are able to get over it and form actual healthy relationships with the other sex. And for those who can do this, it is a very happy and fulfilling thing. Whether you ever decide to do that in the future is, of course, 100% your choice. But since you at least do understand that NAWALT, I would suggest not entirely closing the door on a future relationship, even if it may be a decade or more down the road. It’s your own choice, but I would suggest keeping your options open.

      As far as living for oneself, that, also, is people’s own choice. But it’s rather a small, circumscribed life. We humans are a social species, not a loner species. Even if you don’t believe in the greater good and that sort of thing, being engaged in the wider social scene and building strong interpersonal relationships is just part of our genetic and social character as homo sapiens. Attempting to cut off all relationships that have any depth goes against our very nature.

      Having said that, if you regularly contribute to charity, then you’re not actually living entirely for yourself. And that, in my opinion, is a good thing. Contributing to something greater than oneself gives a satisfaction that goes beyond just taking care of one’s own animal and emotional needs, as important as that is to our overall wellbeing.

      Thanks again for stopping by, and for your thoughts.

  9. Jay says:

    I would say that Ive taken the “Red Pill” but that largely means that I’m aware of societal traps for the modern male. This is what it means was to me…

    1) I’ll never be legally married again. I may declare in front of all my friends and family to stay w my partner (commitment ceremony)but will never delve into an undeniably skewed legal system which favors women at every turn. We can derive some sort of contract for property division (ie an escape clause) but I refuse to sign and contract which isn’t fair, marriage or otherwise.

    2) Women demand equality, I demand equality. Thanks to the red pill I’m fully aware of the current double standard. Women want equality as long as men die in wars for them, police the streets in much higher numbers, work much more dangerous jobs, are largely expected to pay for dates, etc

    3) I will have a custody agreement in place prior to having children. Child custody laws favor women period. I get my kids 11 days a month and I had to spend 18 months in court and over 10k to do that. I’ll just add that I have zero history of abuse and no criminal record. The unequal balance was due to my irregular work schedule ie I work more than ever to pay $1300/month child support. So my advice to guys, just expect to not see your kids a lot if you aren’t subservient to your partner.

    In conclusion, I have moved on from bitterness and now focus on practical methods to live well. Why, I LEARNED FROM MY MISTAKES! I still love women,but will never give a woman a key to my financial kingdom. I’ll fully expect her to pull her own weight and practice equality. So until I meet that woman, I have a great job, a lovely relationship w my girls, vacation well w my bros and lady friends, and just live life. Yes, I’m guarded, it’s not ideal but I’m stable and my mental health has never been better. C’est la vis…

    • Lee says:

      Hi Jay,

      Thanks for stopping by and telling your story. I’m glad your bad experience with divorce didn’t totally sour you on women, as seems to be the case with so many MGTOW.

      Personally, I don’t think the State should have anything to do with marriage. However, despite the negative aspects of getting the law all tangled up in people’s personal relationships and finances, there are some benefits of legal marriage that are useful as long as we live in a society focused on money and property—which will likely be a very long time. Most couples would also prefer their partner to have the right to visit them in the hospital and make medical decisions for them if necessary rather than that defaulting to some possibly estranged or hostile biological family member. Still, I believe that securing specific legal rights should be a separate thing from making a personal or religious commitment recognized socially and religiously as marriage. In this as in other matters, I believe in a separation of Church and State. For an interesting sidelight on this, see my post:
      Real Marriage vs. Legal Marriage

      My own experience with divorce, while not pleasant, was nowhere near as hellish and biased as what many men have recounted on the MGTOW websites. I was able to gain effective 50% physical custody of my two children who were still minors (my two sons). Under the laws of the state of Massachusetts where I then resided, this meant there would be no child support flowing either way. There was also no alimony. For his last two years of high school my youngest son lived full-time with me and my wife by his own choice (I had since remarried). While I could have pursued child support from my ex-wife during that time, I never did. Besides my lack of interest in getting my family all tangled up in the courts again, one of my primary goals in the original divorce settlement was to have no remaining financial entanglements with my ex-wife after the divorce. Yes, that meant I got stuck with all of the marital debt, which sucked. But severing all financial ties avoided many future conflicts and headaches, and it was well worth it. So although I know many men get screwed by the courts and effectively lose their children, my experience was different. And that was with a female judge presiding. All women are not irrational and evil, MGTOW dogma to the contrary notwithstanding. 😉

      For me of that is all now well in the past, thankfully. I’ve had no contact with my ex-wife for many years now, and I have a good relationship with all three of my adult children. So life is good. Not all divorces end as disasters for the man.

      Finally in response to your thoughts and resolutions, I have come to believe through these various experiences that ultimately, full equality between men and women, especially in marriage, is the ideal. And this means not just legal and social equality, but also financial equality. I.e., women will no longer be able to simply expect men to support them as if it were their God-given right. While many traditionalists and religious folks bemoan the breakdown of the old pattern of marriage in which the man was the boss and breadwinner and the woman was his servant and homemaker, I say to that old system: Good riddance! If some couples want to engage in a division of labor for the purposes of raising children in which the man works while the woman raises the children, that’s certainly their choice. But it should be a choice made between the two of them, not something that is simply expected by society or by the woman. And if some couples want to reverse the traditional roles such that the woman works and the man raises the children, that, too, is their business, not mine or society’s or the State’s.

      Meanwhile, best of luck in finding the woman you’re hoping for, and good on you for not waiting until then to live your life!

  10. Lee says:

    A MGTOW blogger whose screen name is Neroke recently wrote a response to the above article here. Though he invited me to respond in his comments (“You have a problem with me you take it to my comments”), when I did so my comment was promptly deleted.

    Here is the response I wrote there:

    Hi Neroke,

    Thanks for taking the time to respond to my MGTOW article. I’ll ignore all the standard Red Pill name-calling and personal attacks and focus on a few of the substantive points you make.

    But first, I’m a little surprised that you think my article is so terrible. I read a whole lot worse while doing the research for my three-article series on the Red Pill movement. Having gone through a milder version of what a lot of Red Pill men have gone through in their relationships with women, I’m far more sympathetic to MGTOW than most outside critics. And if you can’t take a little satire . . . well, that’s your problem, not mine.

    But what really struck me in reading your article is that for the most part, you’re telling MGTOW the same things I am, except from an insider’s perspective rather than from an outsider’s perspective: Get yourself out of bad relationships if you can. Be single if you want to be single. Don’t blame it all on women. Take responsibility for your own self as a man and move on with your life.

    As for all of the things you say I’m avoiding, I had already dealt with most of them in the first two articles in my Red Pill series, on MRA and PUA.

    Now I’ll respond on a few points:

    “I’m an atheist”

    Doesn’t really matter to me. I don’t care if you’re theist, atheist, agnostic, buddhist, rastafarian, or pastafarian. And I don’t think God does either.

    Within a few short centuries after Jesus, Christianity got seriously off track, thinking it’s all about believing the right thing rather than about living a good life—which is what the Bible focuses on. Yes, there are statements in the Bible about believing in Jesus. But traditional Christianity has totally ignored what Jesus himself taught. Read Jesus’ own clearest statement about who goes to eternal life and who doesn’t in Matthew 25:31–46 (The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, AKA The Judgment of the Nations). There’s not a word in it about belief or about faith in Jesus. It’s all about how people treat their fellow human beings. And it applies to people of all nations, not just to Christians.

    It’s because I’m a Christian that I care far more about how people live than about what they believe. I wrote a whole article on my blog about how atheists can go to heaven just as easily as theists as long as they live a good life with some care and concern for their fellow human beings according to a decent set of principles.

    So I don’t really care much if you’re an atheist. I care about whether you live a decent life according to some set of principles that says, at the most basic, that you should treat other people the way you would want to be treated. Even if you don’t believe in God and an afterlife, that still makes life better both for yourself and for humanity as a species.

    Of course, it’s your business, not mine, how you choose to run your life. You’re the one who has to take the consequences for whatever choices you make, and whatever actions you take. And no, I’m not talking about being roasted over a spit in hell. I don’t believe that either. I’m talking about making your life a lot harder than it needs to be if you do stupid, selfish, and greedy things.

    But you seem to be a decent person despite all the bluster. I suspect you have all of that fairly well under control by now.

    Which leads to:

    “We’re just venting”

    I get that. And I do deal with it in the articles.

    But reading the Red Pill and MGTOW forums, it was hard to find the “adult” Red Pillers in the room. Where are the men saying, “Don’t get mad at all women. Get mad at the one who screwed you over”? Where are the men saying, “Let it all out! And then get over it and move on”?

    Yes, you can find these things if you dig into some of the MGTOW websites and video channels. But you can find a whole lot more about how terrible, selfish, and destructive women are, and how men’s problems today are due to the feminism and gynocentrism that have taken over modern society.


    But that’s the next point.

    To finish up with this one: If you’re going to do your group therapy for new Red Pillers in public, and the adults seem to have left the room and buried their more mature perspectives where most casual observers of the movement never find them, what do you expect your movement to look like to outsiders?

    And you can say all you want that you don’t care about what outsiders think of you. But if you want to bring about change in society, it isn’t going to work very well to project an image of screaming victimhood. The people who might otherwise work with you to make those changes will just distance themselves from you and tune you out.

    “Today’s society is anti-male”

    First of all, objectively, this just isn’t true. Men still occupy most of the top positions in government, industry, and society. Men still make far more money and wield far more power than women do. We are very far from a society in which women rule and men grovel at their feet.

    When outsiders hear Red Pillers yell about how women are running the world and oppressing men, it makes the Red Pill movement look ridiculous, because looking at the big picture, it’s simply not true.

    However, there certainly has been a pendulum swing on the gender front in recent decades.

    Given that throughout recorded history men have been ascendant over women, that’s not too surprising. If anything, the current pendulum swing against all that history of men being on top and women being on the bottom is rather mild.

    And as always, the pendulum will continue to swing until society reaches a new equilibrium on gender roles and relations.

    I predict that in another fifty or sixty years today’s sitcoms in which men are bumbling idiots and women are smart, savvy achievers will look like dated period pieces just as TV shows from the 1950s now look like dated period pieces. And more seriously, the current imbalances in the divorce courts will be a thing of the past as well. It takes time and a lot of very hard work to correct the wrongs and the overreactions of society and the legal system.

    Meanwhile, men in today’s society can still live a good life. Yes, some men will get screwed over by women. And some women will get screwed over by men. Lots of people screw over lots of other people. Welcome to reality.

    Personally, about all I have left from my first three decades of adulthood is my beliefs, my relationship with my adult children, and my rather extensive personal library. Most of the rest is gone. I had to rebuild my life from scratch. So don’t tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

    It may surprise you to hear that all your shouting aside, I agree with most of what you say in your “rebuttal” to my article. I’m just a little mystified that you seem to think I’ve made a terrible attack on MGTOW. In fact, even though I engaged in some satire along the way, I’m basically telling MGTOW the same thing you’re telling them: Don’t blame women. Take responsibility for your own life.

    (Edit: This has now been posted as an article on this blog here.)

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Lee & Annette Woofenden

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